#111: Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC)

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:00:00]:
There's plenty of like websites and like services out there that connect founders and investors. But I think a problem with a lot of them is that, you know, investors and like anyone else, I guess, for that matter, like nothing feels better than being let in on a secret. When all of a sudden you open up the floodgates, whether it's on the investor side or the founder side, you lose that that specialness, that that, you know, high touch curation that I try to strive for with first look.

Jeffrey Stern [00:00:27]:
Let's discover the Cleveland entrepreneurial ecosystem. We are telling the stories of its entrepreneurs and those supporting them. Welcome to the lay of the land podcast, where we are exploring what people are building in Cleveland. I am your host, Jeffrey Stern. And today, I had the pleasure of speaking with my good friend, Brian Fulmer. Born and raised in Cleveland, Brian has just recently boomeranged back to Cleveland after 6 years in New York City and starting his own company. Brian is the founder of First Look VC and DistroBox. He's a mentor at Techstars and a 16z, a managing partner of the First Look Syndicate and a proud Ohio State alum.

Jeffrey Stern [00:01:08]:
He previously led business development and strategic partnerships at XRC Labs, international operations at Victoria's Secret, and took his first startup through a technology startup accelerator in his hometown of Cleveland, Ohio. Through his work at First Look VC, he's come to believe that founders are the dreamers in action who drive innovation, push the world forward, and create the bedrock of our economy. And in practice, he's focused on helping those exact founders build exciting brands and realize their visions. First Looked is dedicated to cutting the friction and red tape between founders and investors by sending innovative products from emerging high growth consumer brands directly to early stage investors via their subscription box. In our conversation today, we explore how by connecting these 2 groups in a new efficient and practical way, Brian can uncover far more promising brands than before and begin to rewrite the script on consumer investing. Please enjoy my conversation

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:02:06]:
with Brian Fulmer. Brian, welcome to the podcast. Happy to be here. This

Jeffrey Stern [00:02:11]:
is great.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:02:13]:
It is good. I you know, offline,

Jeffrey Stern [00:02:15]:
you and I have been, riffing over the last few months on Cleveland on startups, since since you moved back to town. And I feel like today, we can unpack a lot of the conversations that that we've already had a bit, but I am excited to have you on to, to share your story. Because for 1, I think you're generally pretty funny. So I think you'll think it was will be good. But also, I you know, I've just I've loved your your passion for for Cleveland and you know, your optimism about the city and, and also, you know, we'll talk about yourself as an entrepreneur. But but thank you again for for coming on.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:02:56]:
Yeah, no, thanks for having me. This is great. And I always wonder what you thought when, Eric connected us like a year, year and a half ago. And you're like, who else this guy like coming in hot back to Cleveland? But, yeah, appreciate, you have me on. I'm excited.

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:10]:
Absolutely. Well, yeah, maybe, you know, kind of round out your your story a bit here, boomeranging back to to Cleveland, You know, just share a little bit about your your path and, you know, how, how we're we're on the podcast here today.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:03:26]:
Yeah. Definitely. So born and raised in Cleveland, went to a Brexell Bravais High School. And then like all good Ohio boys went to Ohio State. After school or after I graduated, that's when basically I kind of got the first taste of the startup world and VC world. I was working at a startup accelerator here in Cleveland that unfortunately is no longer in existence or at least the Cleveland office is not I'm not sure if you remember Bizdom. It was Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:03:53]:
Yeah.

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:53]:
Well, when I when I moved to Cleveland, I originally was working in Start Mart,

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:03:58]:
which I think

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:59]:
I think had acquired all of the wisdom assets, perhaps

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:04:03]:
Yeah. At that point. Yeah. Yeah. Right there in Tower City.

Jeffrey Stern [00:04:06]:
Right in Tower City.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:04:07]:
Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, I was I was working there and, I just was like, this is exactly what I wanna do with my life is just like be around founders, be in this investment community. And while I was working there, I, you know, and I was like part of the invest, you know, the committee that screens a lot of our applications and started getting a feel for, like, what they were looking for. And I actually submitted an idea that I had been working on the side to get into the program. I'm not gonna say, like, I knew the questions that they would be asking, but I had a general idea of, you know, like, what what they care about. And, yeah, ended up getting into the program and I went from, you know, employee to founder overnight. Unfortunately, that startup didn't work out.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:04:50]:
I was essentially trying to create a website that connected sports fans who have a certain team they love with bars that support a certain team. So they're traditionally called backer bars and Cleveland and the Cleveland Browns have one of the largest backer bar networks in the world.

Jeffrey Stern [00:05:09]:
For sure. And I know in in New York, it's like it's a Yeah. It's like a a destination.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:05:15]:
Yeah. And and every city has these bars. Funny enough, Buffalo had Bills Mafia has the largest network, and you can find Bill's bars in Japan. I found one down in Cancun a few years ago. Yeah. Which was, I loved popping in there because they had all this all the games on on a Sunday. But, but, yeah, I tried to start this site, and this was before, you know, there was Wix or any of these websites that helped you build real quick. So took a bit of time to actually build the site, build the database behind it to make it run.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:05:44]:
And unfortunately, we just couldn't get enough traction to get to that next level and raise that next round. So had to shut that down. But once I got a taste of, you know, startup life, basically being your own boss, working with so many smart folks around you, I was like, I got to get back to this. Jumped into corporate retail for a bit, worked at Abercrombie's headquarters and then Victoria's Secret's headquarters down in Columbus. DS got me out to New York City where I was at the office there, and then I jumped on board with a startup accelerator in New York called XRC Labs. They invest primarily in retail tech, consumer marketplaces, and then consumer brands. Yeah. And, yeah, while I was working there, essentially came up with the idea for first look, eventually started it.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:06:29]:
And then was always my dream to move back to Cleveland because being here in the startup community when I was at Bizdom and building backerbar.com, I was like, I got to get back to Cleveland and put basically Cleveland on the map when it comes to startups and investing. And I always knew I wanted to move home just because, you know, this is where I grew up. This is where I want to start a family. It's where my family and friends are already at. So basically just being a diehard Clevelander, I was like, I knew I had to come back eventually, But I needed to, you know, build a little bit of a track record, you know, build some, some connections in New York. And then once I had that, it'd be the right time to move back.

Jeffrey Stern [00:07:08]:
So having ultimately done that, we can we can talk about, you know, first look and and the impetus for all that. But before we even get there, what what was it about the consumer space that kinda, you know, drew your your attention, given kind of the, like, breadth of things that that are in the startup world? What what is it about, you know, consumer that that resonates?

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:07:34]:
I mean, part of it was just working at XRC Labs and their heavy focus on consumer. So, you know, I immediately started getting experience in that space. But anyhow, maybe if I worked at a tech accelerator, might have been a different story. But I just love consumer because there's a lot of psychology that goes into why people gravitate towards one product or another. You know, in in tech, maybe I'm oversimplifying it, but I feel it's a bit more straightforward and, like, this tool solves this problem for me. And I'm just gonna arguably use the best tool there is out there to solve whatever I'm doing, you know, whether it's on a computer or whatnot. But consumer, though, it's way more unpredictability when it comes to like why people buy this brand over another. Sometimes it's just being in the right place at the right time.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:08:20]:
Sometimes it's because, oh, a celebrity is behind this brand and I admire that celebrity. And sometimes just plain old the product's great and I'm going to drive an extra distance or go online and order it even though it might be a little bit more for shipping because I just love the taste of it. So yes, I just find that the psychology behind consumer brands is far more interesting compared to tech, but I could be wrong. I don't know enough about tech to have a solid answer there. I just love the, yeah, the psychology side of things for consumer.

Jeffrey Stern [00:08:52]:
Yeah. No. I think that I think that checks out because I know ultimately on the on the on the tech or, you know, air quote, software side of things. At the end of the day, it's still like people behind the the machines, you know, do doing the stuff. So you can't like, you're still working with people. And when you're when you're working with people, the psychology comes into play. But the I think the there is this like, unpredictability and real intrigue around like why certain brands end up, you know, taking off when others wouldn't and it feels hard and in the moment to like, try and gauge why that might be, you know, one one brand over another, why you know how it how it resonates in the cultural zeitgeist.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:09:34]:
Yeah. 100%. It's kind of wild because I'll see some brands that are like, it's probably just unbelievable. Like, and all of a sudden they, like, barely get out of the gates and then they just die. And you're like, how the hell did this not turn into a smash hit? And there's a lot of other things that kind of come into play there. And then there'll be brands that like arguably, I don't know, either don't taste that great or work that well and like they end up like murdering it. And you're like, wow. I did not see this coming, but you did something right.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:10:02]:
So it's interesting.

Jeffrey Stern [00:10:04]:
I remember first be like, being made aware of the power of brands. I think in college when I just I feel like over the course of a year, Canada Goose, like, just blew up in a way. And I was like, you know, there are a lot of warm jackets out there. You know, why is this particular brand blowing up in the the way that it is? And it and it I don't know that I've ever understood it, but it I think that was when I first became very acutely aware that, like, there's weird psychology going on.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:10:35]:
Oh, yeah. Well, it's funny you say that because there's a lot of brands that like to tell that they have this large community behind them, and that's what's a big driving force of why they're growing or why they'll continue to grow. But unfortunately, a lot of founders mistake a community with an audience. So one of the things I always like to say is a community is what happens when the brand leaves the room. So essentially, if the brand's not there driving the conversation, is the are those people still talking to each other and talking about your brand? And if they're not, then you just have an audience. If they are still talking about you, that's good. You do have a community. And then there's basically 2 types of communities.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:11:13]:
There's communities where like, for example, one of the brands I worked with, Belly Welly, they have these kind of brownie bites that are designed for people that have IBS and, like, they chat with each other a lot because IBS is, you know, there's a lot of issues with that and they like to figure out, you know, what's the best time to eat or what to eat. But then there's the community side of products where buying a certain product as a consumer, I want other people to think of me in a certain light where, you know, I always thought it's it's a great place where if you have a product where people want to leave it out on their countertop, on their table because, you know, when you invite your friends over for like a dinner party or whatever, you kind of want your friends to see like, Oh, wow, you buy that product or you have you use that? And like, Yeah, I because I'm either a smart consumer or a savvy consumer. I care about my health. I don't know if flexing is the right word, but you certainly want to signal to other people that I am a buyer of this product because I like what it stands for. So it's almost in some respects a silent community where maybe they're not directly talking about it when their friends come over for dinner date, but maybe they'll see the private, Oh, you buy that? How do you like it? And like, then they start talking about it. So it's interesting, the community side of things and like, yeah, again, back into psychology, what drives everything.

Jeffrey Stern [00:12:30]:
Yeah. Well, I I appreciate the indulgence of that detour, but I I think I think it might be helpful at this point to understand, you know, first look and maybe just give us a little bit of an overview of of what it is. And I don't know, as you were, you know, coming out of that accelerator work, you know, how you were thinking about what you wanted to do next and and how it, you know, kinda took the form of a first look when it was starting.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:12:54]:
So high level first look is pretty fun concept. Each month, I take about 7, sometimes 8 brands, pop their samples in a box, send those boxes out to a bunch of early stage investors. They get to try everything. I create a data room for the brands so the investors can learn about them, see their story, their traction, their passion behind what they're doing. Most importantly, they get to look through their pitch decks. And then afterwards, the investors fill out a short form where they're, for the most part, just picking the brands they want to connect with. And then once I get those picks, I loop everybody together in email and let them take it away from there. So the best way I'd like to sum up first look is we're Shark Tank in a box.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:13:36]:
So you got to have a good punchline. I feel like that helps with connecting dots. But yeah, the idea came from someone I was working at XRC Labs, we would always have brands that send us sample product to our office, cases of whatever drink or whatever product. And half the time we were even talking to those brands. So I was thinking, all right, if they're sending us product and we're not even talking to them yet, and we're just an accelerator, we're not even a straightforward VC firm, they got to be sending product to everyone else out there, which it gets expensive sending product all over the place. And it's just a hassle to find investors that would be interested in what you're building. So it just kind of hit me one day. I was bike riding near Battery Park.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:14:21]:
I remember the exact moment and the exact spot I was in that like it hit me. I was like, There should just be a box that curates the best of the best brands and helps turn that one to one grind of finding investors and sending them product, turning into a one to many type situation. Yeah. Couldn't stop thinking about it, ran it by a few investors and friends I had made in the community. And for the most part, everyone loved it. The business model was still up for debate at that point, but I got a lot of great feedback. And then finally, in fall of 2019, decided to go full time on it. Here we are today.

Jeffrey Stern [00:14:57]:
So it was a true epiphany. Yeah. It's spur of the moment inspiration.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:15:02]:
Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it was the exercising part that got the creative juices flowing, but I mean, it helped to be in that space because I always knew I wanted to start another company again. And I figured, all right, if I don't have an idea just yet, the best thing I can do is at least work at a place where there are other founders, there's ideas floating around, there's just learning everything there is to learn about starting a company before you even have an idea. Yeah. Working there, I kind of saw the problem firsthand of what founders were dealing with. And then once the idea came to me, I'm like, this is it. I'm going for it.

Jeffrey Stern [00:15:38]:
If that was the challenge for founders, you know, trying to get attention, get distribution access to investors, what did the status quo feel like from the investor side of the coin?

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:15:54]:
Oh, man, that's an interesting question. The spectrum of investors, well, 1st and foremost, investors always want to see more deals. It's largely a numbers game to try to figure out who's going to have the best chance of being a winning investment. Now, the appetite for investors of whether they want to pay for a first look membership, That is a funny and long list of conversations. Some investors have no desire. Like, I would never pay for something like this. And I even had some investors say like, oh, you should charge the brands more and like cover our side of things. So it's free for us.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:16:26]:
I'm like, probably not good luck since you're the one that has all the money and the founders are the ones that are broke, but appreciate the feedback. And then there are investors who are like, Brian, like $99 a month. Like, this is nothing Like, you're arguably like undercharging for the value and service that you provide. So it's been interesting. You know, it is you can't build something that's for everybody. You got to find those people that it does resonate with and we're doing a great job at that. But it is funny that for the, you know, and even when I have this conversation with investors who are proponents of first look, man, some of the things they say about the investors, when I tell them that like, Oh yeah, some people just don't like it. Like they like dog on them.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:17:05]:
Like any investor that thinks this is too expensive, they shouldn't be investing. I'm like, I agree. But unfortunately, there are people out there that that could differ. So the investor side is interesting. But then in the day, more deal flow is always a great thing. And if you can try that product out before you even jump on a conversation, it saves time because at the early stage of investing, especially for angels, VCs not as much, but regardless, it's hard to invest in a product that you don't genuinely like yourself. I have some investors who are like a few I've come across like, Brian, I really actually couldn't care what it tastes like or how this works. If they're making money, I'm in.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:17:48]:
But that's the minority. I would say 95% of investors do follow this thesis where I have to at least like the product before I invest. If I don't like it, I'm out.

Jeffrey Stern [00:18:01]:
With that, what does the first box look like? You know, how you how you take this idea and and piece it together in reality?

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:18:09]:
So this is a wild story. So, I started going full time in 2019, fall 2019, stupidly filed out, filed my incorporation papers in November, not realizing I have to pay taxes now, even though I haven't even lost anything. And then it was on Tuesday, March 10th. I did my 1st LinkedIn post. I'm like, Hey, everybody, come check out this new company I'm starting. Finally finished building the site out. And 2 days later, COVID was officially like here. It was in New York.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:18:37]:
There was like I'll remember it perfectly. It was like there was runs on the grocery stores. I remember being a part of it. I'm like, are you effing kidding me? Like, you know, the literally 2 days after I launched my company, a global pandemic kicks in. And it was tough at first because I don't know if you remember, but the 1st month or so, if you talked about anything except COVID and safety, people would look at you like you're like, What's wrong with you? And it's like, you know, I'm trying to like launch my brand here, like build it, like get the word out and like, you know, you say something about your business or whatever, especially trying to like promote your business and people would be like, you know, Hey, dummy, read the room. Like we're in a gold pandemic. And I was like, all right, well, I don't know what you need to do. Like, I got to keep moving forward here.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:19:24]:
Finally, after that settled down, which I think it was the Burger King commercial, they were the first company that I saw that, like, actually used COVID as a means to keep pushing their business forward because they had commercial on

Jeffrey Stern [00:19:37]:
it. What was that commercial?

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:19:39]:
It was for their drive thrus and how their drive thrus were all you know, everything's like sanitized and there's a handoff that's like really easy and you don't have to be nervous about going through the drive thrus. That was the first company I saw that like said, alright, COVID's here. We have to keep moving forward. So we're going to like not leverage COVID to make more money, but we're going to acknowledge that this is here. But we need to keep, I don't know, existing, I guess. Yeah. So once that, you know, people kind of started selling into it a little bit. Yeah.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:20:07]:
I went home to Cleveland for about 2 months. I remember leaving New York. I'm like, Oh, I'll be back here in 2 weeks. This will blow over. No. So it was kind of nice because it was like I was heads down on the business. No distractions. Could just keep cranking away.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:20:21]:
I was starting to build the investor list, starting to find the brands for the first box. And then I moved back to New York June 1st. My apartment was literally nothing happened in there except just collecting dust. And yeah, I started basically prepping the first boxes. We had 10 investors that, you know, some of them I knew from just working in the space and then some of them were new and was able to grab 6 brands and basically pitch them on like, Hey, this is what I'm trying to do. And you could be a friend and help me out and let me do this. And, yeah, shipped the first boxes in, like, late June and haven't looked back since. But it was interesting because I'll never say that I'm happy COVID happened, but I also can't complain too much because when everything shut down, all of a sudden, all those networking events and fireside chats and all those opportunities that founders and investors would normally bump into each other after work, they all came to a halt.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:21:21]:
So So all of a sudden, First Look became this like great tool to bridge that gap and bring founders and investors together. And, yeah, I think that was like a big part of like how we got that initial traction was because no one was meeting up with each other. And our box is all about connecting, you know, two sides together. So I'll take it. It worked out for me.

Jeffrey Stern [00:21:45]:
Yeah. You know, the box the boxes get delivered. You know, the the investors, the the venture capitalists, they're they're checking out, you know, the the different offerings. What does it look like for, you know, an investment to be made? What what I guess, like, what are what are the outcomes ideally that that you're looking for? And maybe just kind of take us through from from start to finish here, you know, a brand looking to break into to first look and get that that access of distribution to, you know, investors on the other side of it. How how are those relationships facilitated? And maybe, you know, how is that different? Or, you know, how is that kind of interaction relative to what everyone's used to today?

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:22:29]:
So as far as the brands go, I try to keep it simple. They either sign up on the website or I'll bump into someone somewhere, or else get intros from, you know, other founders and investors, whoever. I jump on a call with everyone and kinda go through my due diligence with them to make sure that everything checks out right. You know, I don't like to say that I'm here to pick the winners. I think my job is more about trying to figure out who has the least chance of winning because, like, I think there's still a lot of luck that comes into VC. So I'm not the one to say, like, oh, oh, yeah, this is an automatic like winner. You should put your money into it. But there are some folks that certainly aren't as far along or maybe they're just not as buttoned up as I think investors are wanting, wanting to see.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:23:12]:
But at the early stage, the end of the day, these are all super early companies. Like what it comes down to is betting on the founder. You're betting on the right person that'll figure out, you know, the metrics and the core analysis and, you know, LTV and CAC and all those things. The best founders figure that all out, you know, as time goes on. So my I think my real job is just trying to figure out more about the person behind the brand and not as much or not maybe critiquing as hard the brand itself as it is right now. But once I give them the green light, you know, I pick and say about 7 or 8 brands each month. They send me the product. I create a data room for them that has all their information in it.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:23:50]:
They go in the box, which usually ships out around 25th of each month. The investors get it and get to try everything, learn about the brands. And then once I, you know, the investors let me know who they want to connect with. It's like any normal intro from there. I just put them in an email and tell them, Connect and conquer. Thanks. And they're on their way. I don't really have any I don't butt into the conversation or even continue that with the founder and investor.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:24:13]:
Once they're connected, I let them go from there. And, you know, if they say the right things to the investor, that what the investor is looking for as far as investment opportunity, everything happens between them.

Jeffrey Stern [00:24:23]:
So from from your perspective, the most successful box is one where, you know, investments are made, brands get developed, capital is deployed, right? Like, what that that's what that outcome is intended to be.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:24:37]:
Yeah. No. A 100% right. The our North Star metric is funds raised for brands. So I always, you know, it's a funny line I have to tow between picking brands that I think are going to receive an investment and just picking brands that I think are just cool as hell. And this should exist in the world. Like, this is great. I want them to do well.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:24:59]:
So I always just try to pick the coolest brands and hope the investors see the same thing that I'm seeing. But yeah, landing an investment is best case scenario. Unfortunately or statistically, they're not going to raise. 1st look is not a silver bullet. I can't make the investors write checks. Can't change the dynamics of just how hard it is to fundraise in general. I'm not going to say first look is like a boom or bust business because what I've tried to do from day 1 is try to provide a lot of value for the founders beyond just fundraising or beyond just landing a check. So with each of them, I sit down and I do a full pitch deck review, whether it takes 1 hour, 5 hours, whatever it takes, try to share with them everything I know about, you know, what investors like to see in these decks and like how to think about their business.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:25:46]:
We have like a WhatsApp community for sampling opportunities that I add them to. There's a handful of other things that just, you know, other things that provide value because yeah, landing a check is hard. Like, that's that doesn't go away. Yeah. I think we've done a pretty good job of adding that value. So even if they don't raise, they still feel like this was a good opportunity to go through.

Jeffrey Stern [00:26:07]:
Is that where the the syndicate work that that you started to do came into play was to kind of round out that opportunity or or how did that come in and is it, you know, related to first look?

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:26:20]:
That came about in a different way. So, you know, our model right now is the investors have a membership to first look, which, yeah, is $99 a month. And then the brands pay anywhere from 3.99 to 8.99 depending on their last 12 months revenue. I try to make it as cheap as possible for everyone. I'm certainly not getting rich off this by any means, making just enough to cover my bills. But one thing I never wanted to do was do any sort of success fee or, you know, the brands have to give me advisory shares by going through. My theory was that if I made it too expensive for the brands, I would scare away the best of the best. You know, when you think about like the VC landscape, there's always that like most brands get a lot of no's, lot of investors pass, but there's always that like top 1 or 2 percent where like all of a sudden the tables turn and like investors are like trying to claw their way around.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:27:12]:
And those are, you know, that's now TBD on whether those hot deals actually outperform the mean. I have yet to find data on that. But nonetheless, I never wanted to make 1st look too expensive and not have an opportunity where those founders could jump in because otherwise, you know, if I talk to them, they'd be like, hey, jump in the box and it costs extra money or I'm going to take Successfeed. They would be like, Brian, we have investors begging to be in our round. We don't need to go through your boxes per se. We're all right. And if I charge Successfeed, they would have certainly never considered it. So I try to make it as cheap as possible for them.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:27:50]:
But because I don't take any success fee or equity or anything, I started the First Look Syndicate, which that's our way of basically separating church and state, where if we do like a brand, we'll pull together investors into an SPV and invest that way. That's my only way of essentially getting a lottery ticket to some of these brands. But I definitely I've always wanted to make it as cheap as possible for the brands because they don't they don't got a lot of money. But at the end of the day, they're trying to raise more. That's why that's why they're out there. And the nice thing about the syndicate is it's like, yeah, I can start building a track record for myself as far as like, am I picking the right brands that are doing well? We'll see.

Jeffrey Stern [00:28:29]:
What what are some of your favorite brands that, you know, have come through that that, you know, you've helped establish those relationships or or invested in?

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:28:40]:
Oh, man. I mean, we've had 225 brands now go through and some of them are hella neat, hella cool. We'll see if they can scale or if this is something that, you know, can have a venture exit of some sort. And then some things are a little bit more simple, but like it's just something that everyone can enjoy so they might become big. 1 of the first companies that I thought was really cool was a company called Tropical, and they essentially took discarded coconut husks and compressed them down into charcoals for your grill. And they actually burned hotter and longer than a typical charcoal. And they were upcycling what was traditionally going to be thrown out. And I was like, Damn, this is hella cool.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:29:24]:
So I thought they were fun. I had a company called Baoza recently go through which Mark Cuban's an investor in, and they essentially take those little Asian baos that you'd see at a Chinese restaurant and they put pizza like cheese and pepperoni in them instead. And they're selling like crazy. And it's just one of those like, Oh, yeah. Like, this is what seems to be a simple concept of pizza everyone loves, Bao's. Everyone loves, like, let's just combine the 2. Another cool company. And I got to give shout outs to the Cleveland brands I've worked with.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:29:59]:
Everykey, they're super neat in that, yeah, the product, this little key fob kind of thing just unlocks whether it's your computer or your car or whatever it is, anything electronically. I think what they're doing is

Jeffrey Stern [00:30:09]:
We had Chris on. I I I realized they they had gone through first look.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:30:14]:
Yeah. Yeah. They did well. It's a little harder with tech companies because their COGS are a little bit higher. So I always want to be real conscious of like giving out their product essentially to the investors. But yeah, it did really well. There's another cool company here in Cleveland called Peaceful Fruits. I don't know if you know Evan.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:30:30]:
He'd be good for your podcast. And he was, I think he went through Venture for America as well. Yeah. But he is essentially his company is like remember when we were little kids, there was like fruit by the foot and fruit roll ups and like gushers and all those things? Yeah. Well, now they're older, realize those are just basically like sugar, gummy. I don't know what the hell they were made of. But his company is essentially redoing a lot of those things by actually using healthier ingredients and making fun shapes and fruit tape and, but it's good for you. And it's actually just dried fruit and they have a proprietary process of kind of how to get it to the shape and in the consistency of what we remember as kids, but it's actually good for you.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:31:12]:
So I could talk all day about all the like there's a lot of interesting brands, but interesting doesn't always necessarily translate into is this venture backable or is this going to have, you know, a venture outcome that investors are looking for.

Jeffrey Stern [00:31:27]:
Right. Well, we had talked a little bit about, you know, the the unpredictability of,

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:31:33]:
you

Jeffrey Stern [00:31:33]:
know, how the brands will evolve and the psychology behind it. But like, with that, are there predictive things that you have seen, you know, coming in interviewing 100, you know, potentially 1000 of founders before or, you know, through first look, is there anything like outside of, you know, is this founder the right person for for the job that that can help you gauge, you know, in retrospect, you know, which which of the ones have made it through?

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:32:02]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, first and foremost, I think founders have to have a passion for what they're doing. There's a, you know, a lot of lot of I mean, I don't say a lot, but a good amount of founders out there that will just start a company because they see an opportunity to make money. It's great. We all have money. But when times get dark and it gets tough, a lot of times those founders give up because they're not passionate about what they're doing. So I really like it when a founder has like a personal experience or reason of why they're doing it because that's what's going to get them through those hard times.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:32:34]:
After that, it's a little bit wild west, but obviously you have to have a great product, a beautiful brand. And then for a lot of product, it's like distribution. How do you be at the right place at the right time? And some categories are more straightforward than others. But then the day, you know, if you're product solving an actual pain point that consumers will pay for and you have brand equity, you know, there's a lot of activity now with celebrities starting brands, which that's yeah, very hotly debated right now of like, do celebrities, are they I'm not saying necessary, but like, are they a way to, like, expedite growth for a company? And there are certainly winners out there, you know, or I mean, right now Prime Hydration is murdering it, but

Jeffrey Stern [00:33:18]:
Or like the I just saw the the Mr. Beast stuff. I mean, it's for wild. Yeah.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:33:23]:
Yeah. But for every one of like every one of these like success stories you hear where a celebrity came on board, there is a graveyard of brands where a celebrity got involved and it went nowhere. So it really comes down to and this is probably true to a degree in tech, but when you build a big business, at the end of the day, the product just becomes a widget. I hate to say it because I know founders work hard on these things. And the real magic is actually in your growth story. You know, the grill marketing tactics, the strategy that when it came in for early days of expansion, getting really granular with where you're going to set up shop or what markets you're going to go after 1st, which let's talk to a chocolate brand as they basically put caffeine in their little chocolate bites. I challenged him. I was like, Which investment bank in New York He's based in New York City.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:34:16]:
Actually, a Cleveland guy. I was like, which bank in New York City drinks the most coffee per capita or like per employee? That's the exact bank you should be trying or office space that you should be trying to get into first because like that's the place where you're most likely going to have people that are susceptible to what you're selling. So whether it's JPMorgan, Goldman Sachs, Citibank, whatever it is, like, figure out who sucks down the most coffee and then start with there. And then, you know, it's nice because when you when you get really methodical in your growth strategies, it tells investors, Wow, this founder has really done their homework. And then they feel a lot better about giving you money because they know it's going to a good home. And you actually like to think about these really careful things about how you're going to grow the brand. So long story short, there are certainly things that signal that you're on the right path and you're probably, you know, hopefully going to do well. But at the end of the day, like, there's also still a lot of luck in some of these things.

Jeffrey Stern [00:35:11]:
How do you think about that for yourself? You know, the the growth strategies and plans for for first look and, you know, kind of over the, you know, coming months, years, what is the kind of higher level impact that that you're you're hoping to achieve here?

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:35:30]:
So I'm bootstrapped, and I'll probably always say bootstrapped, which means we grow a little bit slower than everyone else's VC backed, and I'm okay with that. You know, there's pros and cons to both sides. Don't get me wrong. Obviously, I'm in the business of helping people raise VC dollars, so certainly proponent of it. You know, I've always tried to go with a boutique style company. There's plenty of like websites and like services out there that connect founders and investors. But I think a problem with a lot of them is that, you know, investors and like anyone else, I guess, for that matter, nothing feels better than being let in on a secret. When all of a sudden you open up the floodgates, whether it's on the investor side or the founder side, you lose that that specialness that that, you know, high touch curation that I try to strive for with first look, which I only pick 7 brands per month to go in out of the hundreds of brands that apply.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:36:25]:
I try to I keep the investor count low on the other side because I want them to make sure that they're feeling like they're seeing deals and opportunities before their peers are, before their competition is. So yeah, keeping things much more boutique rather than like, All right, are we going to scale this to a massive level? Is certainly my goal. As far as getting create, this is there's a quote out there. I forgot what it is, but essentially it's like hard times or like basically being broke breeds creativity because you like you have to. I always think about like some of a lot of musicians have their their breakout songs when they were at their lowest, not lowest point, but basically broken point where like they're sleeping on a friend's couch. They had no money to go out to the bars and nothing. All they could do is sit and make music. And that's what end up making their 1st smash hit to help them kind of get propelled.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:37:16]:
Same thing with founders because I don't have like not swimming in the money. Like I had to be really creative. The one strategy I love to use is creating as far as marketing goes, creating things that are either self fulfilling or basically super cheap to distribute where it's not like there's not much of like they provide value for people. So, for example, I created a public Gmail calendar that has all the events and expos and conferences, pitch competitions, everything for the consumer brand world. And I had it just I would made it for myself at first. I'm like, Oh, I want to know when all these events are. And I just I was like, Wait a minute. I should just share this with everyone so that everyone can see when things are coming or when there's deadlines or whatever it is.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:38:04]:
And so, I ended up just sharing it with, yeah, the consumer VC landscape and everyone loves it. And nice thing now is like I'm on first look is on at least 1800 to 2000 people's calendars, which is arguably some of the most precious real estate on our laptops. And it costs me nothing except my time, which is to make sure I find these events and add them in and have, you know, the right dates and everything. But once it's up and going and now I have a little submit button where it's like, Hey, you have an event that you want to have on your like submit it here. And now, like now that it's up and running, I don't have to worry about like constantly finding new events. People just submit them to me and I just add them, you know, if they qualify. And it's great. Cause me nothing except my time.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:38:46]:
And now it's just self sustaining where people just submit events for me. And I'm doing another one right now where, we'll see if this works out, but, a newsletter called Founder Horror Stories. I might change the name to Founder War Stories. I'm still split on that. But to set you know, all the founders, I'm sure you have plenty of scars from your days as a founder. Like, you know, these moments, you know, at least the consumer will, you know, their stories are like, Oh my God. Like, you know, all the ingredients were supposed to arrive at our manufacturer and all of a sudden, like one ingredient couldn't make it. So we had to rent a car and drive from Kansas City to Seattle and go through a snowstorm and we almost crashed and blah, blah.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:39:24]:
Like they all have these wild stories of how they had to persevere. And I want to create a newsletter for founders to share those stories. And then hopefully once it gets jump started, founders just keep submitting their stories. I literally will just copy and paste them into the newsletter and send it out once a week and like minimal lift on my part becomes self sustaining as it grows. Founders submit their own story, so I don't have to do much work on it. And, yeah, it'll be a great, hopefully, a great marketing tool for the first look where it costs me nothing and becomes self sustaining.

Jeffrey Stern [00:39:55]:
I I personally love that idea. I think, yeah. Well, you know, because it's like it mirrors the the personal social media landscape where I think from the outside, it always looks very, you know, good and polished from from the startup perspective. But, like, obviously, there's a lot of stuff going very wrong all the time, and it's constantly putting out fires. And I think it's I don't know. Part part of the fun of this podcast is, like, hearing, you know, what people have to actually do to to make it work.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:40:25]:
It's interesting you say that because one of the questions I like to ask, founders when I'm, you know, interviewing them and doing due diligence is, what keeps you up at night, you know, in terms of the business? And because, you know, everyone's really pretty good at, like, painting a pretty story of like, Oh, we're just murdering it over here. Let's do this. But when you ask that question of what keeps you up at night, that's when you start getting into what they're nervous about or what is top of mind for them, and you kinda start getting those deeper stories. So but, yeah, we all have those war stories. You just sometimes don't hear about them until it's, like, a personal conversation. But you gotta pry them out.

Jeffrey Stern [00:41:00]:
I'll pry them out. Well, I'll play it back to you. It's too easy now. You know, what what keeps you up at night?

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:41:06]:
Oh, man. I I'm always just wondering if I'm doing the right thing. So very deep answer to this question is anytime there's a a tool that comes out that makes fundraising easier for a founder, the old guard, which is all the traditional VCs out there, they usually hate on it because it's competition for them and it changes the dynamics of how they operate or like how hard they have to work for what they're doing. So easy example of this is when those crowdfunding campaigns came out, like Republic, for example, you know, all of a lot of investors out there were like, Oh, if you have to raise a Republic, you must not be a good brand. Like because if you were, you would just raise the traditional route. And so from the day 1, I've always tried to keep it conscious of that. And Republic Now, they're great.

Jeffrey Stern [00:41:56]:
Oh, and

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:41:56]:
everyone loves them. Yeah. And there's actually a lot of investors now that the tides turned on them where now investors are like, you should raise some of us and you should do a crowdfunding campaign because you have all these fans and just help support your brand and like it's great moves. And now, like they're embracing it. So, on first look, as you know, it's always like, all right, I'm a tool that helps founders potentially raise rounds faster, which then all of a sudden it's like, all right, well, if you have to go through first look, are you not that great of a brand? The answer is no, obviously. But I've always been conscious about that. And that's why I've always tried my best to make sure I get absolutely great brands so that I can nix immediately this thought that like, Oh, if you had to rely on 1st of you must not be that great. Obviously not the case.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:42:42]:
And yeah, that's always been a worry of mine from the start. And like, we're we're far enough into the market now. I mean, we're almost over 3 years in the market that, like, we're past that. But it was something I was worried about in the beginning. And it's like a very real thing. Like, because so much of a VC game is about signaling and optics and like Yep.

Jeffrey Stern [00:42:58]:
And exclusivity. And then your Yeah. It's like on the opposite end of that spectrum is access and exclusivity.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:43:06]:
Yeah. I mean, it still keeps me up to, you know, to a degree tonight, but or each night, but that was like a huge thing in the early days was being very careful about

Jeffrey Stern [00:43:14]:
that. What comes next? What has you most excited looking forward over the next year when you think about the business?

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:43:23]:
Well, I'd love to get to a point where because there's a lot of investors I meet where their focus is too specific or first look right now because the box is agnostic. It has food, bev, beauty, wellness, home goods, pets, every category you imagine. And because of that, I have to find investors that are agnostic when it comes to CPG investing. And there's also investors, you know, there by stage. Like, I only do pre seed and seed or, you know, I only do series A and above, whatever it is. So I'd love to get to a point where I can start segmenting the boxes out in more specific categories and by stage. And our deal flow is strong right now where I think we have great brands every month, but I'm not sure if it's strong enough yet to be able to consistently put out, you know, 2, 3 boxes each month and feel good about, you know, am I providing value to the investors where because the moment they get enough brands that are just like not that great or not that appealing, they're going to ask themselves like, why am I subscribed to First Look? This is a waste. Yeah.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:44:22]:
I love to get to that point where our deal flow is strong enough where we can have all these boxes going and all the brands are great. I feel good about them. So that's long term. You know, nice thing is we built essentially a proprietary deal flow engine, not just deal flow in general, but like anytime you can build an audience, it gives you optionality with like what you can do next. So I'll be adding in some like additional revenue streams this year, like little things. I'm not not going to be retiring on a beach anytime soon. Yeah, now that we have like, you know, brands that are finding us and there's extra ways to support them beyond just fundraising, hopefully I can capitalize on some of those things.

Jeffrey Stern [00:44:59]:
Yeah. Well, that that was something I wanted to ask about, because at the at the onset, you know, you mentioned that it's it's really just about the the one time facilitation, but, you know, if how your relationship with the brands can evolve over time, you know, outside of, you know, this kind of one time transaction.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:45:22]:
Yeah. I call it splash. One big splash in the box. I mean, with all with all the brands because I mean, you know, it was June 2020 is when I started sending the first box out. And, like, some of those brands, you know, they're they've already raised, like, 1 or 2 rounds since then. So any brand that I work with, I always say like, you're always happy to like, you're always welcome to jump in the boxes, whenever you'd like for your next rounds. So I try to support them basically through their whole growth path and like different rounds that they're raising. But yeah, we'll, we'll, I got a few things cooking as far as like how to help brands.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:45:54]:
We got, I'm working on something right now with helping brands get onto the shelves of like DSD and like independent distributors, which which I think is super exciting, you know, because the way I think about it is like, all right, I have the attention of these brands. They trust that. Yeah. I do the work at least I work hard for them. And I've never been the kind of guy that like, there's always people that try to do partnerships with 1st look and like, those never work out. And I've always been this team from working on my accelerator days, founders hate it when they're when they become like a horse and pony show. And so I've never I've just always having the founders respect. I've never tried to dangle things in front of them that helped me make more money, even though I don't I might not know how well this like tech solution or whatever, Shopify plugin or whatever it may be, like SMS server, whatever it is.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:46:44]:
I always have to be really careful with that. And if I ever do share things with them, which I do have a bimonthly kind of private email, I send all the founders, which is cool things I'm seeing, but I never financially make money off them. It's just cool things that I see. And I think they, you know, they respect that. Like, I don't just I'm not a sellout essentially, even though it'd be great to make more money, but I rather have their respect. And so it's like when you think of the biggest issues that these consumer brands, have is like, first is like, I need investor money to grow or to get this going. And the second biggest thing is like, how do I get sales? And so, yeah, right now working on something that basically solves for getting on shelves and getting in front of consumers and in sales. So as long as that works out and then start building a track record with the syndicate, I would love someday to start a fund here in Cleveland that invests in consumer brands.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:47:39]:
And then we leverage First Look and this other company to actually help brands succeed and, basically just help put Cleveland on the map when it comes to startups, VC investing. That's the dream.

Jeffrey Stern [00:47:53]:
It's a shared passion and enthusiasm for supporting founders that we have. So I love it. Love what you're doing.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:48:02]:
Yeah. Cleveland is a great Well, I love Cleveland. So everything I say is, of course, we bias. But Cleveland's great from my goal since I moved back is and this is like literally a decade or 2 long goal is like to make Cleveland the next Austin. So I don't know if you follow, but Austin is quite the hotbed for consumer brand startups. Obviously, New York's New York, LA and Bay Area, those will always be like big markets, but Austin is like arguably probably the 3rd or 4th, like hottest market for consumer brands. I'm not even sure why, to be honest to you, it just kind of like happened. But now Austin's getting super, you know, pretty overcrowded.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:48:39]:
Traffic's bad. It's still a great city. Don't get me wrong. My goal is to make Cleveland the next Austin in terms of consumer brands. And my argument for that is that 60% of the US population is within a one day's drive of Ohio, which translates to product can get delivered to 60% of the nation in one day. We got unlimited water, clean, fresh water. Awesome. We have a heavy manufacturing background, so there's a lot of infrastructure here for it.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:49:08]:
Yeah. And then, you know, I love what Mayor Bibb's doing with the city. So we're just making it very like up and coming progressive. The only thing we need to get going here is like tying in the are like the educational institutions, the universities, colleges to help foster that environment. So I would love for us to like, you know, whether it's Stanford, like it's such a great feeder system for the Bay Area. Carnegie Mellon does great with all things in Pittsburgh and autonomous driving cars. Yeah. I love for Cleveland to, like, basically become, you know, a city where all the resources are there, the talent, the pool is there, the money is there, to build something amazing.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:49:46]:
I think we can do it.

Jeffrey Stern [00:49:48]:
I'm right there with you. You know, we'll pull it together.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:49:50]:
We can do it. We got it.

Jeffrey Stern [00:49:54]:
Well, very cool. I'll leave a greenfield, you know, question for you here given the kind of breadth of stuff that we've talked about. Are there any, you know, parts to the first look story to your story that you feel are particularly important that we haven't touched on yet?

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:50:11]:
I'm sure a lot of other founders, every founder probably deals with this. But like, yeah, there's just some days where I don't know if I'm doing the right thing or yeah. Am I doing enough? Am I doing it right? It can be stressful at times. But it's one of those things where, like, you know, I always try to find balance and that, like, I'm not like a surgeon where if I don't do something right, someone dies. Like, I always try to remember, like, don't have fun and it's not life or death situations here. And I also think it's important to like, you know, when 6 or 6:30, whenever it's like close the laptop and be okay with the fact that like, Oh my God, I'm not putting in 24 hour 8 days a week work and like, oh my God, can I make it like, you know, there's a lot of people that don't get a chance to maybe like pursue their dreams as much or are doing things that, you know, for a living that they don't like? So any day that, yeah, I always try to remind myself that like, hey, I'm doing something that I enjoy. So can't be too hard on myself. But it's tough.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:51:09]:
I mean, you know, it is with the founder being a founder, like, there's always like them on your list moments. You're like, am I doing this right? Am I doing enough? Like, it can be stressful.

Jeffrey Stern [00:51:18]:
Yeah, startups, I feel have a way of exacerbating the highs and lows to very, you know, extremes, where it's very high, and it's very low. And, you know, you when you're trying to maintain balance, you you can't let the highs get too high and the lows too lows. And you have to have fun along the way. And, you know, that that stuff matters a lot.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:51:42]:
Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it's like time's always gonna pass by anyway. So please try to do something that you enjoy.

Jeffrey Stern [00:51:49]:
Well, I'll, I'll throw our traditional closing question at you before we we wrap up here, which, I'm very curious what you're gonna say is for not your favorite thing in Cleveland, but for a hidden gem, something that, you know, other folks should know about. But maybe they don't.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:52:11]:
My food and restaurants are like weird pics. Like, I love Skyline Chili, which I know people are probably cringing at the sound of that. I do like Swenson's. Unbelievable. And then I'm a huge proponent of Cozumel because I love Mexican food. As far as hidden gems go, though, man, the towpath in Brexville in the metro parks, oh my God, especially in the summer, it's the most beautiful walk you'll ever have. And I'm actually not even crazy to say that because Palatine bikes, they added the towpath as an option for people to bike on like, you see it through the screen, but they realize it's absolutely stunning and beautiful. It's an option for Yeah, I guess there's people all over whoever is Peloton.

Jeffrey Stern [00:52:54]:
I didn't realize that.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:52:55]:
So, yeah, that's my biggest hidden gem is, going on a walk on the Brexel, the towpath down in the metro parks. Absolutely beautiful.

Jeffrey Stern [00:53:03]:
That's fantastic. You know, maybe it's not gonna be so so hidden anymore.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:53:07]:
Yeah. Actually, no one should go there. It's real ugly and bad because I don't want you guys getting real busy on the walkways there. So, no, it's great.

Jeffrey Stern [00:53:16]:
Yeah. No. It it is pretty special. Well, Brian, I I really appreciate, you know, your your time and and coming on and, you know, sharing a little bit more about yourself and and the work you're doing at First Look.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:53:26]:
Yeah. I appreciate you having me on. This is great. I was a big fan of podcast, big fan of everything you're doing for the city. Looking forward to next happy hour with you.

Jeffrey Stern [00:53:35]:
Yeah. I I am as well. If people had anything that they wanted to follow-up with you about or, you know, maybe they wanna get into the to the next box, you know, what is the the best way for them to do so?

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:53:47]:
You're always welcome to email me. I'm just at brian@firstlook.bc. Brian with an I. I spell it correctly. And then, yeah, I'd be up to our socials just pretty much at First Look VC across the board. But yeah, happy to chat with anyone, especially anyone in Cleveland. I'm even more excited to help you guys out because when we build up our community then it just makes everything better, in the future. So, yeah, always open to chat.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:54:14]:
Awesome.

Jeffrey Stern [00:54:15]:
Well, thank you again.

Brian Folmer (FirstLook VC) [00:54:16]:
Appreciate you, Alfred. We'll talk

Jeffrey Stern [00:54:19]:
soon. That's all for this week. Thank you for listening. We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's show, so if you have any feedback, please send over an email to jeffrey@layoftheland.f m or find us on Twitter at podlayoftheland or @sternjefe, j e f e. If you or someone you know would make a good guest for our show, please reach out as well and let us know. And if you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or on your preferred podcast player. Your support goes a long way to help us spread the word and continue to bring the Cleveland founders and builders we love having on the show. We'll be back here next week at the same time to map more of the land.