#127: Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company)

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:00:00]:

The impact on a community in Ohio is really special. It's it's pretty rare that you get to come back to a place where you were born and raised and really help a community that that frankly was aging and declining. growth. And I think, you know, we're having an economic impact on our community already, and we're keeping great talent in the community, and we're employing younger talent right out of college in gaming and in media that that maybe would not have occurred? How do we not exist?

Jeffrey Stern [00:00:32]:

Let's discover what people are building in the greater Cleveland community. We are telling the stories of northeast Ohio's entrepreneurs, builders, and those supporting them. Welcome to the Lay of the Land podcast, where we are exploring people are building in Cleveland and throughout Northeast Ohio. I am your host, Jeffrey Stern, and today, I had the absolute pleasure of speaking with Michael Crawford. A native of Ohio, Michael is the chairman of the board president and CEO of the Hall of Fame Resort and an team and company, which he joined back in December of 2018. The Hall of Fame Resort And Entertainment company is a publicly traded organization, trading as hofv on the Nasdaq and headquartered here in Canton, Ohio. spanning media, gaming, entertainment, resorts, and sports. The company is dedicated to making legendary moments for fans and leverages the power and popularity of the hall of fame village. The 100 acre immersive destinations centered around the pro football hall of fame and one of the largest commercial development projects in Ohio with assets worth over $250,000,000. Before his role at the Hall of Fame Resort And Entertainment Company, Michael spent 4 years with the 4 Seasons Hotels And Resorts Company where he served as the global president of portfolio management. And prior to that, Michael had a nearly 25 year tenure at the Walt Disney Company. where he rose to senior vice president and general manager of Shanghai Disney Resort as well as president of Shanghai's Walt Disney Holdings Company. From 2007 to 2014, he led the negotiation and multi $1,000,000,000 development of Shanghai Disney Resort. Additionally, Michael currently serves on the board of directors for Texas Roadhouse, the multi $1,000,000,000 steakhouse chain. Michael also recently authored from The Mouse's House to The Penthouse, a book which we will reference throughout our conversation today where he recounts personal stories, lessons, and techniques from his career. This really was an amazing conversation with tons of insightful takeaways, that I very much enjoyed, and I hope you will all enjoy it as well after a brief message from our sponsors. Late of the land is brought to you by Impact Architects And By Ninety. As we share the stories of entrepreneurs building incredible organizations in Cleveland and throughout Northeast Ohio, impact architects has helped hundreds of those leaders, many of whom we have heard from as guests on this very podcast realize their own visions and build these great organizations. I believe in Impact Architects and the people behind it so much that I have actually join them personally in their mission to help leaders gain focus, align together, and thrive by doing what they love. If you two are trying to build great Impact Architects is offering to sit down with you for a free consultation or provide a free trial through 90, the software platform that helps teams build great companies. If you're interested in learning more about partnering with Impact Architects or by leveraging 90 to power your own business, please go to i a.layofland.fm. The link will also be in our show notes. So you recently wrote a book that documents your journey aptly titled from the mouse's house to the penthouse kinda capturing, you know, the professional journey you've been on over, you know, nearly 25 years at Disney to to 4 seasons all before your current role today, which which we'll get to. But to start, I'll I'll say that I really appreciated your reflections on this journey that you've been on. You know, thinking about our audience here who are entrepreneurially minded and sitting at this intersection of people who care about business, and leadership at Northeast Ohio, I think that they will also really appreciate your story and learnings. Many of which apply to a lot more than business thinking about treating people with respect, how to communicate, how to empathize, and understand cultures, and the midwestern ethos. And so I'm excited to unpack. some of these with you today.

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:04:53]:

Oh, that's great. Thank you. Well, I would say it's an interesting collection of experiences I've had, but but sort of wrapped with very simple ideas and leadership promises that I think we sometimes forget. And, you know, even myself, I'll go back to books that I've read over the years and just remind myself of how important it is to communicate with people. How important it is to understand that you're building relationships for the long term, not for, you know, the time you're sitting in front of somebody. So It was it was interesting putting that collection of experiences and then sort of trying to tie a coherent theme of of leadership and lessons learned along the way.

Jeffrey Stern [00:05:33]:

Yeah. So so help us set the stage here and maybe, you know, through the the lens of from the mouse's house to the penthouse kinda you know, paint a picture of the the arc of your career as you experience it.

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:05:43]:

Well, I was I was one of these guys that was probably as immature of an undergrad as you're ever gonna find. And I went to Bowling Green State University. Really love the University of my time there. but I wasn't prepared to sort of think about a long term career. I you know, when people would ask me in college, what are you gonna do? It was business. Right? And that's that's the extent of my knowledge of where I wanted to go and what I wanted to be. So I had a good friend of mine who called me from Florida. He was working in Orlando for Walt Walt Disney World. And he said, look. You know, I know you're planning on going back to graduate school, but why don't you take some time? Come down here. Let's have a little fun over the summer. and I did. And so I went down, and I joined the Disney company as an hourly cast member. I was somebody wearing I always say, polyester costume because at the time, they were made of polyester. I think they've gotten much more sophisticated now around the the types of clothing that they wear. But it was it was a really fun experience, and it it allowed me to see a company like the Disney company from the ground up. And from there, I decided I really enjoyed working there for the company, what it was about, major tourism, making people happy, the product, you know, was fantastic. The leadership was fantastic. And as I was getting ready to go back, To get my graduate degree, I had a a good friend who ultimately ended up being a good friend who was my leader at the time, say, you really gotta think about staying. This is a great company. It's expanding. And that conversation took about 30 seconds for me to connect Going back to Bowling Green, Ohio where it was gonna be really cold for a lot of months in gray to staying in Orlando and doing some pretty cool stuff. from there, I was just given so many opportunities. I think I had 7 jobs in my 1st 5 years working at Disney. Wow. And the the great thing about the company, you don't have to you know, change companies. You can have a lot of different experiences. So I I was sort of groomed to become a generalist, and I grew up through the organization finance, operations, theme parks, hotels, etcetera. And then I I just was given these opportunities along the way to sort of build up a new toolkit of knowledge, you know, when I participated on deals that they were doing, and I participated in building new properties. So, really, sort of, as I look back on my career, was given a lot of opportunities, but I was sort of lucky in terms timing and people who took an interest in me to help groom me to grow along the way?

Jeffrey Stern [00:08:19]:

And so when you think about where you are today, at at the Hall of Fame Resort, an entertainment company, and, you know, kind of reflecting on your experience between then and now, you know, not not that we have to recount the entirety of it. But when you think back on it, you know, what what are some of the the moments of of significance that you think helped shape your career along the way?

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:08:46]:

Yeah. It's it's a great question. I think the the reality of being a you know, an employer or a cast member that was on the front lines allowed me to experience and see things as a guest would see it. And, you know, as I'm building a company with a great team, I'm always talking about you have to build excellence, and you have to create these experiences in a way where guests will really enjoy them. I mean, it's there is a see of opportunities out there today for people who wanna go and spend their time and money on leisure tourism. And so You know, I think the things that have really helped me were connecting those the grassroot experience to what I'm doing building new destinations, opening new hotels with Four Seasons in different markets, and really understanding that know, when you're taking up residency in a place or you're extending a brand into a new business vertical, you have to be thoughtful about the steps that you take And you also have to consider, you know, the long term success, not just what's in front of you today. And and as a public company, at the Hall of Fame Resort Entertainment Company, you you can be lulled into this. Hey. We gotta achieve results quarter after quarter and that doesn't line up with building things sometimes. Sometimes you have to sort of push that aside. You gotta pay attention to it. Your shareholders want you to pay attention to it, of course. but you also have to see the longer term. And I think my career and some of the things I've done both Internationally and Domestically have allowed me to kind of have those experiences to pull from and draw from.

Jeffrey Stern [00:10:21]:

So in preparing for our conversation today, one of the fun facts I learned that I I genuinely had no idea about prior was that I think it was in 1920, about 10 football teams gathered in Cannon, Ohio. to create the at the time, the American Professional Football Association, which I think we all now ultimately colloquially refer to as the NFL. And so there's this rich history of the region that shares the, you know, spirit of the the work that you're doing now in a lot of ways. And I love if you could share a little bit more about, you know, that history and what it looked like and kind of the origins and and founding of the hall, a fame resort, an entertainment company. as well as, you know, just high level what it is and and and what the company does today.

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:11:07]:

Well, the the you said it perfectly. I mean, I get asked a lot or I used to. Not as much anymore. Why are you building stuff in Canton, Ohio? Why, you know, the weather there is okay. Some of the year and sometimes not so much. But you have to go back to the foundation, which is this is the birthplace of professional football. And, you know, those gentlemen coming together, and you you gotta remember at the time, the East Coast was really where this country was born above. Right? I mean, immigrants came into New York and started to move west over time, but a lot of the foundation was built in the east. and the northeast specifically. And so we thought that, you know, building something around the brand of professional football and creating experiences that are so deeply tied to the pro football fame, the NFL, etcetera, would make a lot of sense. It would make a lot of sense from a business point of view for sure. But from an experience point of view, nothing else like it in the world. And by far, professional football is the most popular board in America, which is interesting to me. You know, I grew up playing basketball and baseball and, of course, loved football. But, you know, when you look at the statistics now, the viewership, the revenue, the the fan base. I mean, you can take the next three professional sports, add them all up together, and it still doesn't compare to what the NFL was doing now. So, you know, there was a a discussion about this long before I came to Canton, Ohio, I was president of Four Seasons and was approached by an executive search firm because they knew I was from Ohio, and they knew I had those experiences that I've written about in the book. And they needed a leader who could come in and sort of visualize where this company could go, not only from a destination point of view, But how could we take this brand and the popularity of this sport and really build a company around it? And so that's what appealed to me when I was approached. I mean, you know, when you look at the scale of it right now, we truly are still a startup, and we're you know, Unfortunately, we're suffering like, the rest of the world is still suffering from the global health pandemic inflation and all the all the trickle down effect from those things. But we've we've continued to move forward. We've continued to produce great content, build great assets, create great environments, And, honestly, it's what I've done in my past with a company like the Walt Disney company or a company like Forest Seasons Hotels And Resorts. these experiences are unique, and when you have great, unique intellectual property to pull from, you can you can then appeal to a wide range of guests. So it it's been a lot of fun so far. It's been challenging. I mean, we're only you know, we went public in July of 2020. and we're celebrating our 3rd year anniversary in a couple months. But it's it's been a rough uphill brine for a while. Right. s,

Jeffrey Stern [00:14:10]:

And when you think about what the company offer there really is a breath of services product from physical infrastructure, programming, events, entertainment, kinda writ large. How how would you, you know, capture the essence of, you know, what it is the company is is is bringing forward.

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:14:26]:

I think it's what I said. You know, it's it's taking the popularity of football and and sport in general, but focusing on what we can have access to exclusively, you know, in the pro football hall of fame, millions of pieces of archives. Right? video audio imagery that have never really been brought to life. You can walk the hall of fame today, but the greatest collection of assets are in the archives and not really out on display. There's just not enough room. So taking, you know, that and access to the hall of famers themselves, the greatest that I've ever played the the game and building content, you know, media content, gaming content, creating a destination around the Hall of Fame. Look, there's you know, a couple million folks already coming to events and to the hall of fame and to celebrate entrainment and the kickoff of the NFL season. why not build something that really helps celebrate that in a much larger way? And so, you know, I always talk about we take content, intellectual property, and create experiences from that that are unique and different for guests of all ages to enjoy. And I think we've We've been successful in doing that so far even in a difficult environment, but we got a lot more to do. There's a lot of really fun stuff ahead of us.

Jeffrey Stern [00:15:44]:

So you you had mentioned vision. And as I understand it, you assumed leadership in a somewhat liminal period for for the company some some projects in progress, work to be done. What was your experience onboarding? And how did you actually set that vision where you can, you know, honor the past and the work that's already being done but inspire this future that you have in mind creating world class organization, bringing these physical assets to life and and activating those real world spaces, just kind of innovating across the board.

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:16:18]:

I think back to, you know, when you're when you're building something, you build a new Disney Resort that includes a theme park, a hotel. you know, Walt's famous line is Disneyland will never be finished. And so some people look at that, and it's very inspiring to think, oh, they're gonna keep adding great new things over and over again. What a lot of people didn't really realize was Walt built Disneyland with the money he had and almost went broke doing it. And, frankly, the the vision of it'll never be finished was something it was a bit of a hook to keep people excited and coming back for new things as they would add them. One of the things that, you know, I saw immediately when I onboarded was sort of an overzealous vision for what we needed to do all at the same time. There there were assets here, the pro football fame. There was a a really great stadium. There was, you know, this start of a sports complex, but a lot of those weren't even finished. And frankly, the the it was the company was referred to as a project. The the project at the time, the village was suffering, and I think it was suffering from too broad of a vision and lack of leadership that really under stood how to build something from the ground up and then add to it. You know? Build a strong foundation. Don't try to boil the ocean. there's not enough heat in the world to do that. And so what I did when I came in was take a step back and say, what are the most important pieces that we have to put in place to really have credibility. But we had to finish phase 1. I mean, we had to finish the stadium at each end zone was like dirt and weeds, and you know, stuff that wasn't finished. We had to finish the sports complex, swampland old school buildings around for beautiful fields, but no infrastructure. Right? There were houses all around. So there's a lot of stuff that was really left undone from what we refer to now as phase 1. But then we also had to think about, how do you create a destination? What do you need for people to really wanna come and stay and play and enjoy. And so we paired back the vision quite a bit. and built phases that we could talk about. And then we while we were paring back the physical assets that we were creating, we were enhancing the the virtual experiences. So gaming, adding gaming, e sports, and fantasy sports, we didn't know that sports betting was gonna be legalized at the time, but the the vision that that I always talked about was sports betting enhances the way in which you engage with sports. Right? And so if it ever did become legal, we would wanna have a place, you know, to to be able to do that. And then, of course, media. And we've already put out some really unique different media content. During Super Bowl weekend, we put out one of our biggest shows called The Perfect Ten. And this was the documentary around the 10 guys who won a Heisman Trophy had also been inducted into the hall of fame. You know, for a company that's only been in existence for few years, we were prime time on Fox, partner with NFL films, and Prudential as the lead sponsor for the show. Super Bowl weekend. So it just you know, what I'm what I've been proud of is we've taken off digestible bites, and we've really tried to build something we can continue to grow and sustain over the long term. But it was it was rough, you know, in the beginning because I think the community was a bit cynical. The investors were certainly I would you know, cynical is probably a polite way of saying it, but they were upset with the way things had been performing, and now we've sort of rewrote the story a little bit and and gotten the ship back in the right direction.

Jeffrey Stern [00:20:07]:

So I'll pull on the the cynicism thread a bit there. One of the things I was really curious to get your perspective on, you know, in the context of of being in canon was from from your book, you know, you can you glean that you have this plethora of experience at this point in your career making international deals, you know, running company divisions for 2 of the biggest brands in in the world. And a lot of his overcoming resistance and and doubt having worked with a lot of those local partners, even national governments, the the Chinese Communist Party to to tangible success. And one of the primary themes that you explore in the book is thinking about how to bridge cultures and localizing your strategy. I'd love to hear about what it was like to take that experience to Canton, and and what did you have to understand about this community in that localization exercise as you face, you know, resistance or, you know, some some pushback on change that you're you're trying to enact.

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:21:07]:

I think anywhere you go in the world, and it doesn't have to be all the way to mainland China. You know? you're going to experience culture, and you're going to experience the way in which people are used to doing business and relationships and trust lie at the heart of all of it, in my opinion. And I've always said that, you know, coming from the Midwest, Ohio specifically, And I talk about this in the book. I I just am a a a very plain spoken guy. I I try to be honest. I try to take the fear away, if you will, of the other side of the table, thinking I'm really there to outmaneuver them or out negotiate them or whatever the case may be, and it was the same in Canton. In fact, when I showed up, that had been the case. You know, the the previous regime I think had had a lot of overpromise and underdeliver. And so the government had been supportive the community had been supportive, but they had sort of been brought all the way, you know, to the altar but sort of left there. And so when I arrived, I did a lot of just, hey. Let's talk. You know, what are you thinking? Where where is your head at? Because One thing I know, when you're building something where you're creating a destination, it doesn't matter where you're doing it in the world. If you don't have the support of the government, the community, not gonna be successful. You're just not. There are things that you have to do that require regulated regulatory support. investment support. And by the way, if the community doesn't support you, they're not coming. Right? So -- Right. -- there there was this the skepticism that I in the beginning said, look, I you're completely fair to have that level of skepticism. I've since moved past that because I think what we've shown is that if you trust us, we'll be open and transparent, but now is the time for everybody to sort of lock arms and let's get over the past and move forward together. And so, yeah, I drew a lot upon lessons that I had with 4 seasons and partners really all over the world. When I was president of 4 seasons, I was dealing with folks in Dubai, folks in in France, folks in Asia, you know, India, other places, and you really have to understand what they're trying to gain from the relationship or from the deal or from, you know, whatever it is you're doing before you can then move forward and try to align interests. And that's always, I think, key you you wanna align interests so that over the long term, you know, each party feels like you're you've you've gotten something and you're gonna be successful together.

Jeffrey Stern [00:23:53]:

So can you take us through some of those stages? You know, what is the with a future looking lens how is the evolution of the company as you think about what comes next?

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:24:04]:

I think the company continues to do a lot of what we've already been doing. you know, for a company that, truthfully, has only been operational for a year. If you think about going public in July of 20, from July of 20 until I'll I'll call it sort of spring of 22. The entire world was shut down. Well, let's open. No. Let's shut down. And from there, it was, hey. Manufacturing plants that are producing electrical panels or HVAC systems or whatever, they're not even operating. And so You know, for us, we did a whole bunch of let's batten down the hatches. Let's make sure our strategy is sound over that 1st year. Let's aligned funding. Let's let's get the government and the community on board, and then let's really go at it when we have a clear vision for what the world is going to allow us to do, meaning COVID and the supply chain issues, etcetera. I think now, you know, from I'll call it summer of last year 2022 to today, we've really started to stand up and really started to move forward with creating the destination, creating great media, creating great gaming environments for people to enjoy, and I think the future is let's continue to build out the vision for the destination, adding new experiences, new events, and things for people to enjoy over multiple days versus coming in for a few hours to go to the hall of fame. We're doing that. We're adding world class talent. We just had Kevin Hart, you know, perform this past Thursday. He was fantastic. We had a major lacrosse tournament, 10, 11,000 participants over a 3 day period of time, the same weekend. an e gaming tournament, you know, in our stadium this past Sunday. So the diversity of what we're doing now is really starting to grow the assets are starting to grow, the content is starting to be developed. What we what we then have to do is look to see how do we take the brand and the and the access to this content and expand it in relevant spaces for guests and fans to enjoy. And so as we're continuing to build out or or fulfill what we've communicated against our our strategy today, We also have an eye towards where do we go in the future, being responsible with investment in dollars, and really making sure that we become profitable as a company. That's the step that a lot of companies that are starting up tend to forget. They wanna keep doing doing more and more and more. At some point in time, you pause a little bit of the doing and say, okay, let's let's become profitable with what we've done, and then we'll continue to grow. And that's that's sort of where we're at now.

Jeffrey Stern [00:26:56]:

I I wanna get back to the growth you know, concept overall. But I did wanna ask you you'd when you mentioned diversity, one of the things you had mentioned in the book as well was you know, the difficulty of virtually developing relationships, which I thought is, you know, kinda particularly interesting of a challenge in the context of, you know, the last few years and and the proliferation of virtual experiences that have ensued. how are you thinking about, you know, curating formative virtual experiences and balancing that with real world ones at this point within the company? Well, I think there are there's always now going to be a place for this virtual environment.

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:27:37]:

Right? Whether you're doing business deals or whether you're creating virtual experiences for guests. I think that's the one thing that was accelerated in a very positive way with COVID. That was the only way. In some instances, And so you start to see virtual concerts and virtual gaming and all of this other stuff. That has to be a part of any company's strategy. But here's Here's something I'll give you as an example. We've done a lot of business deals, bringing in 3rd party businesses. Right? 3rd parties to help support what we're doing. We're getting ready to launch this week, Brewkettle, which will be a great new experience at the Village Topgolf great new experience at the village. Doing those deals virtually, I think took a lot longer than if we were able to sit down, right, together and talk and look at the look at the legal language and and create the business connection and the trust. And so one of the things that I'm trying to break my team up today is just continuing to go down that virtual path. I think there is an efficiency that can be gained by doing things in person. And I also think we're human beings trust communication, you know, looking at someone and and reading body language is really important even though you can do a little bit of that on a Zoom call. So there's there's a balance now that we need to strike with as a company how we do business virtually versus what do we do in a in a real environment, in a a three-dimensional setting where people can actually come together and enjoy experiences. And so we're we're evaluating on an ongoing basis how do we balance between the 2. I think a lot of companies are. This return to work policy versus stay home forever policy. You know, I'm not very popular when I say, Look. For us, we're a leisure tourism company. You can't create experiences from your couch when people are coming to your destination. Right? You can do that in some instances with media or gaming, but we have to balance that. And so I I don't blame people for wanting to stay home and enjoy comfort and be with family and and be able to do errands while they're working, you know, in quotes. But I think there is this this rebalancing that the world is going through, and we're certainly doing that as a company as well.

Jeffrey Stern [00:30:02]:

So we can sir circle back to the the profitability idea. And and also something you had mentioned earlier, which I'd summarize maybe under the the challenges of running a public company. while also considering yourself a start up in some ways. So I'm very curious how you think about, you know, combating Short termism and maintaining commitment to a longer term vision and day to day execution while still trying to operate and grow profitably.

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:30:31]:

It's difficult in the world that we've set up, especially in the United States. I'll tell you, in places like Asia, they have a much longer term view on investment and return. Here, we've really conditioned ourselves to live quarter by quarter. And one of the things that is hard to do is tone out some of the noise, some of the rhetoric around why aren't you doing this? Why aren't you doing that? and really keep true to your strategy. What I try to do as a public company CEO is to be as transparent. Again, going back to the book in talking about transparency, you do have to have trust with your shareholders and those that are part of your company. And, again, all you can do to the extent you can do it is is talk about where you're at. And be honest with people, both in the good stuff that is happening and in the challenges that you're facing. The thing that you have to count on then is who are your shareholders going to be And in this world, you do have a lot of short term penny flipping. You know, I wanna get in and out, and then I wanna take my and go to another company where I can get in and out versus, you know, a couple decades ago, you invested in a company because you believed in what they did, and you trusted the leadership and you they had vision towards something that was going to really create a return for you as an investor. That has since changed. You're also battling now technology, you know, the the way which certain algorithms are run with trading cycles. And so for a smaller startup company, we have to really think about how we position ourselves and how we communicate in our trans parent because I was talking about we want the right investors in our company. Our company is not about turning a a a quick dollar today. It's about creating out of this brand and out of this intellectual property stuff that is gonna continue to grow and be profitable for many decades to come like the Walt Disney company did, you know, 100 years ago. So that's the challenge that I think a lot of companies face. then compound that with the world. Right? I mean, inflation, lending environment, stuff. Everything you can imagine putting it in my my Disney of vernacular, it's the parade of horvals that just keeps going by. And at some point, it stabilizes, and at some point, I do think things turn around. Political turmoil is always going to be there. So I keep saying, look, we have to stop looking for excuses the the world has faced, you know, these kinds of wars and health dilemmas and things in the past, and we've moved forward. And and we'll face it again now. But I'll just end this sort of long guy try by saying, you know, what we try to do is stay true to our vision. And, you know, we know they're gonna be people out there upset with the stock price or whatever the case may be. We pay attention to it, but that doesn't guide the decisions that we make.

Jeffrey Stern [00:33:34]:

And I think that I mean, it resonates a lot at least. I've always kinda made this distinction between, you know, purchasing a stock as a as a trader versus becoming an owner you know, as as part of a company because you believe in what what they're doing and the impact they can have. The stock is literally own ownership.

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:33:51]:

because this this and it's a great point. It's a great way to think about it. And I think, you know, unfortunately, the world now with technology and and Etrades and the Rava Hoods and everything else, you can, you know, have access to being a trader much more so than what you ever could a couple decades ago. And I also think it's you know, the sad truth is there are a lot of people out there now through social media that have become self professed experts at trading, and you have a lot of folks listening to people who don't really know much more than they do. but they're looking for guidance as to how to make a lot of money, you know, to become a millionaire, and so they'll take advice from places where they can get it and and that's being a trader versus really doing your homework and investing to become an owner in a company.

Jeffrey Stern [00:34:43]:

Well, go going a little deeper on this this startup mentality. I think and maybe it's it was in retrospect somewhat a consequence of this 0 interest rate environment and the abundance of of you know, essentially free capital. But the the this mentality that was embodied by a lot of startups that was growth at all cost, like, literally at at the at beyond the the saying versus, you know, how you are thinking about capital allocation, which I don't believe is the is the case necessarily. So, you know, what are the the principles that guide your decisions on on running a public company thinking about reinvesting profits versus returning capital to shareholders, you know, kinda actually practically balancing all these different polls?

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:35:32]:

When you get to a place where you have a company that is successful, you know, we're we're still working towards that, as I've said. you you make decisions, you hopefully, that you're balancing return to shareholders versus strategic growth for your company. And I was a part of this with Disney a lot, you know, buying your own stock back versus investing in a new theme park or growing. You you really have to be strategic about how you allocate dollars and where you're spending the the money that you have access to. For us, it's it's a return threshold. It's an eye towards fulfilling our strategy. It's balancing our balance sheet and making sure that, you know, we're not overlevering ourselves and And if we do take on the debt, it's the right kind of debt. And so, you know, for the for the time that we're in, I think we're we we've been successful but there's still work to be done on all those fronts. And most importantly, you know, convincing all of the guests that we're welcoming to the physical destination or into the media space or the the gaming environments that, you know, our product is great product that you can really have fun experiencing and that you should come and and spend your time and and allocate your hard earned money to to support. And that's that's the biggest priority for me right now, and I think for our company. We've we've gotta ensure that what we're doing is of excellent quality so that people see the value. Value in investing in us as a company, but value in spending time with us. There's so many choices that people have If you don't have something that you need in different end of excellent quality, they're certainly not gonna have the you're not gonna have the opportunity to entertain And so we we really focus on our strategy and executing against that today. I think to your point about longer term, we wanna be careful about timing of investing in new assets or new experiences, but at the same time, we wanna continue to grow. So we're we're cautious around evaluating as a company where do we take the dollars we have access to and putting we put them into a new water park experience, or do we put them into a new gaming environment and the return thresholds and and where guests are really focusing time and money, provide us some insight to that.

Jeffrey Stern [00:37:55]:

Expanding a little bit more on that kind of vain What what does success look like to you? Right? Like, just kinda broader level. What is the impact ultimately that you you hope to have looking looking back in in retrospect here? I think 1st and foremost, you know, the impact on a community in Ohio

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:38:15]:

is really special It's it's pretty rare that you get to come back to a place where you were born and raised and really help a community that that frankly was aging and declining growth. And I think, you know, we're having an economic impact on our community already. and we're keeping great talent in the community. And we're employing younger talent right out of college in gaming and in media that that maybe would not have occurred, have we not existed? So that is by far a a great definition of success for us. The second is, you know, as I've said, creating these experiences that people just love. And having, you know, the physical methods station of a brand that is so popular around the United States, but but around the world as well is is precious. You have to, you know, be careful that how you're building and growing around that. And so I I take a lot of pride in what the team is doing to ensure that we have long term success. And then I would say, lastly, you know, it's return. know, it's return for our shareholders. It's return for our our team, you know, on their investment in time, investment in money. When you have a successful company, it does allow you to attract great investments. It allows you to grow and and create more of that second leg of the stool that I talked about the experiences. And so our focus is always going to be, you know, let's make sure we're creating moments and experiences that are excellent. From that, we'll have the impact on the community that we want, and we'll have the impact investors and our shareholders as well, and we can continue to to grow.

Jeffrey Stern [00:39:58]:

What what has you most excited looking forward over the next year. And maybe a way of framing that question a little differently is how do you think about, you know, the future of entertainment and hospitality And

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:40:11]:

how would you like to contribute to that? I think 1st and foremost, there's always gonna be we are people. Right? We love to go, and we like to be in team. We like to see things that align with our interests or experience things that are really unique and different. And so the hospitality business has never suffered. Even in bad times, people will turn to a Disney or a a a cedar point because they want relief. You know? It's it's hard enough sometimes to get through the day with all the challenges that you face, but you wanna be entertained, and you wanna forget reality for a while. And that was always the the fun others saying that that, you know, Disney, like, when you come through the tunnel, you're transported into this magical world. And and that's I think part of what we're trying to create. The the for me, as I look at the next year, I'm excited about the fact that our company is really starting to create synergies across all of our business verticals, and what we're doing in 1 can sort of bleed into the other 2 as an example this week. you know, we're creating this e gaming tournament at the village destination. People are watching it online, We have giant jumbotrons that are showing the competition. We have people coming in to the village and riding rides and and having food and beverage. And so You know, the special nature of what we can do is we can create our own ecosystem between our lines of business, media, gaming, and destination that really I think is going to be unique for our guests and our fans, and I'm starting to see that materialize more now. And I think that for the next year is going to be a great opportunity for us.

Jeffrey Stern [00:41:54]:

Obviously, a lot of your experience prior seems to be directly, you know, transferrable in a lot of ways to the work you're doing now. I am curious what are the the aspects of both the company and your role and responsibilities that have surprised you that that feel, you know, perhaps different than than what you've experienced so far. Well, I think before, when you have ownership

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:42:17]:

listen. Disney owns their intellectual property. Right? Mickey Mini, the parks, the the movies, etcetera. What I'm doing more now is developing this content through others and in partnership with others. And so, you know, I'm I'm having to draw upon the past, of course, and how we think about strategically creating these experiences, but at the same time, you're doing it with a distribution partner. You're doing it with development partner. And so there is this this nurturing of relationships and particular partners that are that is going to help us create more experiences as a company that is slightly different than when you own your entire ecosystem on your own, like a Walt Disney company does. And I think that just it takes a little more time, you wanna make sure you have the right partnerships in place for the mid to long term. And so that's, you know, a big focus of ours in all three of our business verticals is to ensure that we can expand our capabilities through others. And so that's that's a big focus that I think has been different and enlightening as well for our team and myself.

Jeffrey Stern [00:43:35]:

What are the the biggest challenges? Like, what what what would keep you up at night? as part of this endeavor.

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:43:41]:

And frankly, it's the it's the world we're living in. I I think everybody would agree that you know, anytime you're you're trying to expand while the world is trying to readjust and maybe even contract, That's a that's a really hard battle to to fight as a start up. It's exciting. I mean, I, you know, I played sports my whole life. I I love challenges. I love, you know, the the most difficult situations you can give me. Give them to me. And I like going in and and trying to to extend and fix and and build something that hasn't been done before. That was one of the things that I really liked and motivated me about the the deal that I helped lead in Shanghai was, you know, the Disney company been trying to do that for over 20 years and and didn't just couldn't get it done. And we went in with a smaller team and and over the course of a two and a half year period of time. we got it done. And so I think, you know, that's what keeps me up at night right now. You you it's it's the unknown of what is the world going to give you next in terms of your hand, and you gotta be ready for it. And so we are cautiously optimistic that things continue to improve but we also have to be very prepared as a company if they don't. And so, again, expanding while others are contracting is not easy to do.

Jeffrey Stern [00:45:06]:

I wanna ask a little bit about your your personal journey as well. A lot of I think you have some some really fascinating stories from the book. you had one that, I think, resonated greatly and and reminded me of of one of my my own personal favorite quotes, which was a a Mark Twain one who said that travel is is fatal to prejudice and bigotry and and narrow mindedness and some something of that nature. But I I I wanted to just hear your your thoughts on the importance of of travel.

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:45:36]:

Listen. As a as a guy from Willard, Ohio, 7000 people who knew his front yard, backyard, was excited when McDonald's came to town and and even more so when they started to serve breakfast. I was I was scared to death just going to college, and then even more so to to let out on a career that took me to Florida. I'd been to Florida, you know, but I'd never lived someplace else like that. And so going to Tokyo is my first international assignment. You might as well send me to the moon. no, you know, other language experience. I had traveled internationally, but never had lived internationally Japan is a very insular type of culture, very proud of their their culture and their heritage and much older than ours, by the way, in the United States, and so much more deeply rooted. I think what it has taught me, you know, are lessons that I take with me everywhere, which is, you know, we're viewed differently in the United States than what other countries are. politically. We're there to help when needed, but stay out of our business. Otherwise, you know, we we are viewed in some tie this domineering culture that likes to impose its will around the world, which isn't true. I I believe the United States is the greatest country on the planet. I always have. It's not that we don't have our own problems and and issues to deal with because we do. But what it's taught me is to be respectful and understand that you know, wherever you're at, there's a saying in Japan that that one of my counterparts there kept saying The same was true in China, which is walking our shoes. You know, you have to look at things from a different lens, and you have to appreciate the differences that you're going to experience. We have that in our own country today. If you think about some of the political turmoil, it's around issues that have been around in the United States for years, but but haven't been welcomed in terms of talking about them dealing with them, you know, opening up and really experiencing them. And so I think, culturally, when you travel the globe and you have that opportunity, and I was very lucky and honored to do that. It teaches you how to appreciate and and actually be the minority versus, you know, not be that.

Jeffrey Stern [00:47:57]:

Right. Right. I I don't I don't mean to laugh because I find that quite profound actually, but this it it reminded me of of the story from that you told in the book, actually, which was about this concept of a a death allotment as part of, you know, just the the cultural differences. You'd probably be better sharing that story than than I would, but that that to me was, you know, indicative

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:48:20]:

of that of that kind of a thing. Yeah. I I you know? And, again, it goes to you're not conversing in the language. You can't understands who are doing things through interpreters, and we were setting in this big meeting with, you know, couple hundred people. And and we were talking about how we were gonna build and and develop the resort in Shanghai. And after I had finished one of the national development folks, from Beijing had come up to the podium and and was making a statement. And as part of his statement, he said, by the way, we've done the calculation, and you're allowed to have 30 something deaths, people dying while building this destination resort in in Shanghai, And I I asked the interpreter three times to repeat what was being said because I couldn't I couldn't believe that somebody, you know, in a roomful of other folks would say, hey. By the way, you're investing so much, and there's so many people working on this. You're allowed to have so many people die. And, you know, I I thought about that, and it sounds ridiculous, okay, as an American to hear a statement like that, but it wasn't ridiculous in China. And in fact, they were very focused on ensuring that we knew that and that we would not exceed that and and that we would try to do better than that. And, you know, my my return comment was, thank you for that, but our intention is to have nobody die. You know, we we safety is something we take great pride in. But it's easy for us as Americans to kinda look down on a statement like that and say, oh my gosh. How unsophisticated? How would a lack of respect for human life that that actually is. I'm not judging that. You know? I mean, from my own morals and values, of course, that sums ludicrous to to put it bluntly. But from their perspective, that was somebody doing their job and their culture and making sure that we understood it. And so that was a lesson that I've I've taken with me a lot around the world that you think something is So absolutely absurd until you experience different cultures, and then you have to understand and appreciate where they're coming from.

Jeffrey Stern [00:50:28]:

What did you find was the most surprising perspective you encountered held by someone in the rest of the world about America?

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:50:39]:

It was the fact that Americans tend to not listen. that that we are very vocal in terms of who we are as people. And if you think about it and and by the way, I remind my team, and I reminded teams this a lot as well, and and I was guilty of it until I actually lived in Japan. We're not good listeners sometimes. and we will be in meetings or in social settings. And what we're doing is we're hearing what somebody is saying to respond. versus actually appreciate and value the content of their message. And so Gosh. I was I was in Japan, and and someone said that to me, and I thought to myself, how many times have I done that in a meeting where I I'm going to listen to about half of what somebody has said to actually respond in a different way to make my point. versus taking their point and building on it or, you know, understanding it in a different way. And so I talk a lot about now our culture is a culture that includes 3 things, and one of those things is being a culture of and. instead of you know? And what I mean by that is you you listen to somebody and you say, I like that, and we could also consider this. instead of listening and saying, why just disagree? Or, yeah, I heard you, but, you know, I think we should do this. it's more respectful. It appreciates what people are saying. You don't have to agree with it. But it certainly is something that I think was very direct and very surprising to me because I didn't I didn't view our culture as being that way, but it was it was explained to me in one setting, and I I've taken that with me a lot.

Jeffrey Stern [00:52:30]:

That introduces a very meta thought process in my own head in this present moment as I think about our conversation and active listening and I I agree. I agree with with that sentiment. I I think we could all all work on our our presence in in in listening.

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:52:49]:

I I just have to say, you know and look. No one's perfect, least of all myself. But I there have been times where, you know, you're you're someone's talking and you just jump in and you're cutting them off in this concept of ask, you know, listening before you speak and actively listening is is something I think we can all work on. You know, our personal lives and our professional lives, and and it's something I continue to to do myself.

Jeffrey Stern [00:53:15]:

So there there's an abundance of of actionable learnings and and I'll call it distilled wisdom from from you know, your reflections which you package up in the book. I would like to understand what of those are the ones that you find yourself personally referencing the most and and why, you know, those lessons

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:53:36]:

in the the frequency with which you find yourself thinking about them. You know, a lot of it has to do with what we've been talking about. I think it's it's transparency, it's relationship building, it's it's effective communication, you know, in all directions, not assuming that, you know, the people you're doing business with understand everything you're saying and agree with it. I mean, even in the United States, culturally, how many different cultures do we have lift living in the United States? Right? You can go to New York, California, Florida, Texas. I mean, you can find variations of words and food and, you know, all different ways in which we should be appreciating the the cultural differences and nuances. I I take all of those with me. I really do. And and I think in the world that I'm living in today, it's it's really important. Hospitality, you have to appreciate the differences and the diversity of your guests. And so you you wanna make sure that culturally you're being representative of who your guests are, I I think there's a difference, and and this is something that will probably get me in trouble. I think the world has gotten to be more sensitized because of the political nature of doing things versus doing them for the right reasons, and, you know, valuing cultural differences for the right reasons. And so sometimes companies will do things because, well, we have to. Right? Because that's If we don't do that, then there's gonna be some, you know, group that comes out and starts to say something negative about us. Sure. That's gonna happen. And I think you you know, you you're mindful of those things. But how about just really appreciating the differences in the culture and the people and and what we have to do to get along as a society. I think that's important. And I don't I'm not trying to stand on a soapbox here and preach, but that's something that living internationally has really taught me to value more.

Jeffrey Stern [00:55:37]:

On the maybe on the the flip side of that coin, what what are the the lessons that are underrated or, you know, things that that you you wish you would have known And maybe that could be framed as, you know, advice that that you would offer up.

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:55:52]:

You know, one of the things that I did a lot of was when I lived internationally, I wasn't afraid to just not be smart on everything. You know? I I would be very humble. And, again, I would say that's a lot of my midwestern upbringing that that my mother and my father both taught me that, look, you know, listen and and learn, and don't be afraid to ask what you know, the dumb question, right, that people in the room would sometimes not ask. And I I valued that. That was a lesson for me that I wish when I first went to to Tokyo, I was I was a little nervous, and I was nervous because I wanted to look like a a subject matter expert. And I wanted to be thought of as somebody who could be respected, and and I did have my subject matter expertise, but I didn't have expertise in everything. And so as I progressed in my career, you know, I spent a lot of time with other presidents or CEOs or different companies, whether it was leisure tourism companies or not. just asking questions. And, you know, the the fun part about it is, I think people wanna help you. You know, if if their learnings can benefit you in some way, shape, or form. I mentor people. I'm I'm a adjunct professor at the University of Mount Union. I really enjoy helping people be successful and and building people up and and and their careers. And so that was a lesson that I sort of got along the way that I wish more in the early days I would have taken advantage of.

Jeffrey Stern [00:57:26]:

Well, we'll book on the the conversation here as we as we wrap up, wanna be respectful of your time. But or and I should say rather. I I think we've covered a lot of ground here. I wanna ask if there's something particularly important about the work you're doing now, you know, reflections on your journey that maybe we we haven't touched on that that you would like to to share.

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [00:57:49]:

I think we touched on it. You know, the the work I'm doing now has has been a lot of what I've been able to do, I've been lucky enough to do over the course of my career, which is to create things that impact people's lives in a positive way. And I really I mean, I enjoy it. You know, when you see people coming to a concert or or, you know, watching a movie that you've created or being in a gaming environment. I was, you know, it was a small thing, but the the person who won the the chain grab e gaming tournament we held yesterday at the village posting. Yeah. So proud and so honored to be at a destination like that with, you know, professional football. And, gosh, that's a that's a really unique opportunity when you can create those memories for folks. And so, you know, I've been lucky enough to do that a lot in my career and and domestically and in international destinations. And so it's what I'm doing now. It really is. And by the way, it's not just our guests and our fans, but it's our our team that get to have a sense of pride in what they do in a place that they work. It's our community, you know, having having a impact on our community. So it's a lot of fun being able to do that. And I I talk a lot about that in the book and the lessons in doing so, have have given me very special moments in my life. Special moments for my daughter, you know, dedicated the book to her. She grew up half of her life living internationally, and so she has a much different mindset that her daddy did when he was her age. You know? she the world, she's not afraid to do anything or go anywhere, and I'm I'm incredibly proud of her because of that. But it was it was a gift to be able to give her, though, you know, those experiences and for her to have those opportunities, and I think she's really grown and appreciated that. So impact on people's lives is what I would say is the biggest thing that I take away

Jeffrey Stern [00:59:37]: That's that's pretty special. I appreciate you sharing that. No. Generally, I I think the the the work that you're doing at the the Hall of Fame Resort And And Entertainment Company. It particularly what considering the impact economically and and otherwise, it can have you know, regionally, is is really, you know, powerful and and can be, I think, a beacon for an example, a reference for for others who are you know, building in in the area. So it's it's very cool to hear about, you know, the work you're doing. John, thank you for saying that. That that's certainly our goal. So I'll I'll ask you our traditional closing question, which is more related maybe than then it tends to be when we have these conversations. But it it's for a hidden gem in the area, and so I I imagine you might have a lot of these. But but something that listeners tuning in should know about in the region that maybe they don't?

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [01:00:35]:

Well, I will tell you, Ted Swaldo and what he's created in his his son and what they've created at Dhirvassi, right, in Canton, Ohio, the they've created their own wonderful destination. I mean, it's really high quality, the experiences that you can have there, they've got villas, they've got a little hotel, they've got spa, wonderful restaurants, the grounds, sort of transport you. You know, I I'll never get my first visit there. I I really felt like and I I've I've gone to Napa Valley in Sonoma, another wine country areas around the world, it was really, like, transporting me to a different place outside of Canton, Ohio. And I found that to be absolutely spectacular. I'm very proud of the fact that they're in the community that I'm living in and doing great things. They have great service, great product, and so I would say that's one that I knew nothing about and got to know Ted a little bit and their family and how they've really invested in the community and built that up over time, great experience there. Highly recommend.

Jeffrey Stern [01:01:42]:

That's fantastic. We'll definitely check it out. Well, my god. I just wanna thank you again for taking the time for coming on, sharing your story. It's one that I think will resonate a lot, and I really appreciate it. Well, I appreciate you taking

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [01:01:56]:

have me on as a guest and taking the time as well. And I hope it does. As I said, I really like inspiring people to do great things and great things for their communities and to impact people's lives. So appreciate what you're doing as well.

Jeffrey Stern [01:02:11]:

If folks had anything that they wanted to follow-up with you about, what would be the the best way for them to do so?

Michael Crawford (Hall of Fame Resort & Entertainment Company) [01:02:23]:

Any of our channels, you know, I have my own social media channels on LinkedIn and Twitter, our www.hofvillage.com, there's a way in which they can connect with me there, hall of fam resort and entertainmentcompany.com as well. And we have you know, we do to be responsive, that's one great thing as a small company. You know, we monitor those channels and really try to respond on to your thoughts or ideas that people might have.

Jeffrey Stern [01:02:43]:

Excellent. Well, thank you again. Thank you.

Jeffrey Stern [01:02:47]:

That's all for this week. Thank you for listening. We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's show. So if you have any feedback, please send over an email to jeffrey@layoftheland.f or find us on Twitter at podlay of the land or at Sternjefe, jefe. If you or someone you know would make good guess for our show, please reach out as well and let us know. And if you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or on your preferred podcast player. Your support goes a long way to help us spread the word and continue to bring the Cleveland Founders and Builders we love having on the show. We'll be back here next week at the same time to map more of the land.