#143: Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough)

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:00:00]:

My belief is that there's no such thing as luck. You make your own luck. It's being at that trade show. It's meeting that buyer, it's getting them to come to your booth. It's getting them to try your product and tell them why this product should be on American Airlines. It's why this product should be in your retail store, why your consumer is going to buy it, and why everyone loves cookie dough.

Jeffrey Stern [00:00:22]:

Let's discover what people are building in the greater Cleveland community. We are telling the stories of Northeast Ohio's entreprenuership builders, land those supporting them. Welcome to the Lay of the Land podcast, where we are exploring what people are building in Cleveland and throughout Northeast Ohio. I am your host, Jeffrey Stern, and today I had the real pleasure of speaking with Todd Goldstein, entrepreneur, investor, and advocate for intellectual property rights. Back in 2008, Todd cofounded launch house with the mission to invest, develop land, foster promising idea stage companies in Northeast Ohio through community education, coworking, and investment. And through LaunchHouse, Todd has helped grow a diverse portfolio of 65 companies who've collectively raised more than $30 million in follow on funding. Todd's most recent endeavor, though, amongst his many as a serial founder, and also the one which we will spend most of our conversation on today, is Woah Dough, which is a company where he serves as CEO and that he founded back in 2019 in the aftermath of discovering his three boys were diagnosed with severe gluten intolerance. The reality is that 32 million Americans suffer from food, allergies of which 5.6 million are children, a number which has grown drastically over the past few decades.

Jeffrey Stern [00:01:47]:

At first, Todd thought he and his family's cookie dough eating days were over, but he quickly realized that he was intolerant of that, too and took it upon himself to create a snack happy, natural cookie dough that could satisfy his family's sweet tooth without wrecking havoc on their bellies. Two years land, many dozens of recipes later, Woah Dough was born. And today is a growing brand which Todd and his team have grown to boast distribution in brands like American Airlines and participation in Mondelisa's snack futures program, all while creating a gluten free, dairy free, egg free, plant based, kosher, non GMO vegan natural product. I really enjoyed learning about Todd's journey here, his passion for building this out in Cleveland and the momentum of Woodo going forward. I hope you all enjoy my conversation with Todd Goldstein as well after a brief message from our sponsor. Lay of the Land is brought to you by Impact Architects and by 90 as we share the stories of entrepreneurs building incredible organizations in Cleveland and throughout Northeast Ohio. Impact Architects has helped hundreds of those leaders, many of whom we have heard from as guests on this very podcast, realize their own visions and build these great organizations. I believe in Impact Architects and the people behind it so much that I have actually joined them personally in their mission to help leaders gain focus, align together, and thrive by doing what they love.

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:13]:

If you two are trying to build great, impact Architects is offering to sit down with you for a free consultation or provide a free trial through 90, the software platform that helps teams build great companies. If you are interested in learning more about partnering with Impact Architects or by leveraging 90 to power your own business, please go to IA layoftheland FM. The link will also be in our show notes. So I would love to start with your passion for Entreprenuership. Before we just turned the mic on a second ago, we were going over how long it is that you've been in this space, from all sides of the coin, from launch house to investing in companies to building your own. So with that, can you just take us through how it is you came to find yourself drawn to this world?

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:04:07]:

That is a great question. So I'm originally from Cleveland, and I grew up in a family that was very entrepreneurial. My grandfather had owned a restaurant in Cleveland that was actually started by my great grandfather in the 20s. Entreprenuership, I would say, runs in our blood from the age of five. I remember going down to my grandfather's restaurant with my parents when I was off of school or on the weekend. And whether it was helping the baker or putting silverware on the table, I felt empowered as a five year old, land, then a seven year old, to be able to make a difference, even if it was making bread or putting silverware on the table. But my grandfather once told me that you ultimately want to work for yourself, you want to control your own destination. And that's something I've kind of lived by almost my whole career.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:04:59]:

I didn't come right out of college and become an entrepreneur day one. But as I said, I grew up in Cleveland. I went to school on the east coast. I ultimately came back. I was actually having lunch with my grandfather in November of 2000, land three. And he said to me, he goes, where are you going to go? And I said, well, I may not come back to Cleveland. And he said, none of my friends grandkids come back. I hope that you'd come back and maybe come back to make a difference.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:05:29]:

And that always really kind of stuck with me, because here I was thinking maybe I would leave, maybe I'd go to New York or Chicago, like on my friends. But ultimately, I did decide to come back. I came back, I got a job, and then shortly thereafter, I went to work for a medical technology startup company, and at that point forward, really kind of fell in love with entrepreneurial space.

Jeffrey Stern [00:05:55]:

At what point did that laden work for yourself entreprenuership spirit become activated? What was the point at which you decided to become your own boss?

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:06:07]:

So I actually thought it was going to be right out of college. So I graduated. I came home. I actually graduated in November of 2003. I moved home. I thought, I'm going to be an entrepreneur. I'm not sure I knew what that meant. I knew I wanted to go into real estate because I had read a bunch of books about buying real estate, land, how it was a good long term investment.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:06:27]:

And then I got home and realized I had no money, land. I couldn't pay my car insurance. So at that point, I went and got a job for a local company and I got a paycheck. And then from that, I actually bought my first piece of real estate. So I kind of jumped into the entrepreneurial activity entreprenuership spirit. But I was still working full time because I realized you couldn't get a loan without a job. So it was like you had to have a job to start to become an entrepreneur. And a lot of times you hear entreprenuership start.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:06:58]:

They have a second job that becomes a full time job. But from there I realized that I could do real estate on the side while keeping my full time job during the day. And then I got offered a job with a company called Franklin Land. Seidelman and it was a medical technology company that was changing the way radiologists read scans by doing specialty radiology here in the States. Using all the images were sent via the Internet. So radiologists could actually sit in their home and they could specialize in a different part of the body. And so I went to go work for this company in 2000. Land Five.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:07:31]:

And I just fell in love. I mean, the idea of Being Part of A company that Was Growing really quickly I was within the first ten employees at the company, and I Really Just saw how quickly, with The Right Idea, capital Land Team a Business Could grow. And so at that point, I was like, okay, I am hooked on Entreprenuership. I'm hooked on. Yes. I've got this real estate on the side. But that didn't feel like entrepreneurship, right? That felt like something I felt good about doing was making some money, was building something for myself. But I felt like Entreprenuership was so much, so much bigger.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:08:11]:

But I wasn't sure what my next step was at that point.

Jeffrey Stern [00:08:15]:

So from there. Having awakened that energy from within, how did you figure out what to work on next?

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:08:23]:

So I started reading a lot of different publications about things that were happening out in the Valley, in New York, in know, really looking at how things had fundamentally changed from when I graduated high school, where if you want to build a technology company, it costs several million dollars. Where? By 2005. Ultimately, when I started Launch House, you could literally start a technology company in your dorm room. And so the barrier to becoming an entreprenuership and starting a business had come way down because the cost of building that minimal viable product or that prototype became viable with a few thousand dollars and access to a customer. And at that point, not only did I start, did a lot of reading and understanding what was happening in other parts of the country, I also thought about maybe I should get up and move to somewhere where there's a much more vibrant culture for entrepreneurship. Because if you think about Cleveland, cleveland was not a hotbed for entrepreneurship or innovation, right. It really was that at the turn of the last century when we were one of the wealthiest cities in the world and somewhere along the way, I saw the city kind of lost their way. And so it was a crucial point where, you know, either I'm going to get up and move to a vibrant city where it's very entrepreneurial and there's access to capital, access to people that want to build things, or I'm going to try and do that here.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:09:51]:

And that's really when I met my co founder. Land launch house. And we said, you know something, there is still access to capital here. There's all the resources you have in major cities. You have access to mentorship, you have access to public transportation. So one of the things that we realized as we were going through this process of like, is there really an opportunity to try and build a really strong ecosystem from ground up as a 25 year old. Because what I saw consistently in every other city across the country is Doddsborough community wasn't led by the guys with gray hair, right? It was led by 20 sell things that didn't take no easily that were going to bang down the door. And we're really just want to take risks because the older you get, the less risk you want to take.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:10:40]:

And so for us, we said to ourselves, we're 25, we have a small amount of capital. My partner and I had made through our other business ventures, we know there's Case Stern Reserve University. That was another key factor. We found all the other cities that driving entrepreneurial cultures. They had really strong universities supporting that Entreprenuership ecosystem. And you had a low cost of living, right? It's really tough to start a company in San Francisco where your rent alone is three, four, $5,000 a month, where in Cleveland it could be $500 a month. And so we thought by bringing all those pieces together and then just putting it out there, that we're not the end all, be all. We're going to create a community, a safe space where you can come, we're going to bring together mentors, access to capital, resources for Entreprenuership, but you can feel comfortable, come pitch your idea.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:11:32]:

People aren't going to tell you it's stupid. People aren't going to knock you down and knock you down people are going to give you real advice, real mentorship, because people want to see you succeed. And really, that was the underpinning of why we started Launch House. It was really. We started above Dresie's. Pizza and University Heights. The idea was, come pitch your idea, get real feedback, maybe get some access to capital. But if you're meant to be an entrepreneur mentors, other advisors are going to help you along that path.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:12:01]:

You may pitch your idea and realize you shouldn't be an entrepreneur, you should go get a job, but realize that now, not after you've spent several hundred thousand dollars of your friends, family and investors money. And so if you think about in 2007, there's not a safe space like that in northeastern Ohio. And that's what was our idea behind the early days behind creating Launch House. It ultimately started we started by doing these pitch nights where first pitch night we had maybe seven or ten people show up. Within twelve months, we had 300 people showing up because people really just wanted that outlet to explore their entreprenuership self and see, yes, I have it in me. I have an idea. I have done my customer development. I can build something and someone will buy it.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:12:48]:

Or no, I don't have anything. I might as well not waste my time and money and let me keep doing my job and have fun on the side.

Jeffrey Stern [00:12:55]:

Yeah, no, Launch House is a special place, and I think it had filled that void that people were in search of at the time. When we last met up at Launch House, actually, I kind of got an abridged version of the Woah Dough story, and so I've been looking forward to holding the space for you to share the full, unfettered version of that. But I'd love to understand, as Launch House evolves and you get involved in more entreprenuership endeavors, how you kind of managed and balanced as you explored those supporting founders versus then going back to starting something yourself.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:13:36]:

As Launch House started to grow and evolve, if you think about the early days of Launch House, it was really about supporting entrepreneurship. And then it was at one point we were supporting high school entrepreneurs, adult entrepreneurs, we were doing accelerator programs, we were doing free office hours. It was kind of unknown what Launch House was, except a place that anybody can come to day or night and get real advice, access to capital to start and grow your business. And for myself, it wasn't clear to me exactly how we were going to make money as we grew from above Tracy's Pizza to the city of Cleveland, then ultimately Shaker and the in the end, our home today in Highland Heights. For the first, I don't know, seven years, seven plus years, it was really about community, community being that space. And then as opportunities would come up, always in the back of my mind, I would look and say, okay, is this an opportunity where I can add more value, or is there an idea I have that I could push into the marketplace, or is there an idea I can give to an entrepreneur? They could take land, run with it. But ultimately, I think we grew up as an organization as I grew up. Right, so you're 25.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:14:48]:

Starting something is a lot different than when you're 35 and then 40. And entrepreneurs are supporting change as well, right? So if you're 25, you're supporting a bunch of young 25 year olds, especially in Cleveland, where it's tougher to be younger than it is to be older. I really looked at as like, let's really start to go from focusing on everyone to focusing on entrepreneurs have the best chance of success. And then ultimately I realized that Cleveland's follow on funding was becoming that much tougher. So going into 2014, we really kind of looked at Land, said, why don't we just become that agnostic place where entrepreneurs can just come to? And it's not going to be about the capital we have because one of the things we saw is that people would come all over the country to get capital from Launch House, and the program was over. They'd get up and leave because the access to follow on funding wasn't here. And so at that point, you're like, okay, well, I spent all this time and effort to continue to build this ecosystem, but our best companies are now in Boston, they're now in California, they're now in Denver. So I kind of started seeing the writing on the know, we're really going to be a space where you come to, but you have to pay to be here.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:16:04]:

And at that time, I started thinking about my own life and about, okay, I'm involved in other ventures as well, and I have to make money. And so I need to focus on kind of split my timing between Launch House and some of those other opportunities.

Jeffrey Stern [00:16:18]:

And in those other opportunities, had you been thinking about what Woah Dough would become? What is the origin story, if you.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:16:28]:

Will, for, you know, a lot of it was about timing. So as Launch House grew, different opportunities would present themselves where, you know, whether it was co founded or became part of other businesses that we were able to build upon, where we saw market opportunity. Right, and so Launch House was always kind of operating, and then there'd be other business opportunities where it's like, okay, well, this makes sense. And this makes sense because I've learned this. I have all this knowledge of all these companies we've helped at Launch House. And from that you're like, okay, now I see a product market fit. How do you take that to the market? But most of those opportunities were really kind of more service related. They weren't truly like, ground up, build a software or build a food company.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:17:20]:

But what had happened simultaneously when I talked about earlier, my grandfather had owned a restaurant from the age of five. I'd be in the bakery, I'd be helping the baker, and then I'd go home and I'd be sick. Up until 30, every time I would eat, I was always really sick, and I never knew why. And the when I turned 30, I got diagnosed with severe gluten. Allergy other people celiac and I stopped eating gluten, and my whole life changed because now I couldn't eat the things I loved. But at the same time, my stomach didn't hurt anymore. And talk about Launch House, right? We talk about how Launch House kind of opened my eyes to different opportunities. Well, now my change in my diet opened my eyes to a new opportunity, the opportunity that if I have this issue, I guarantee other people throughout the country and throughout the world have the same issue.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:18:15]:

And so we had started looking at companies, not just in the tech space or service space or manufacturing space. We started looking specifically for better for you food companies. Land so that's where I got my first exposure to understanding how do you bring a food product to market? Not at the time that I ever think that I was going to start something ground up myself. But again, as you know right, you're around that environment, right? Putting yourself in that environment around other entrepreneurs, other things that are happening, people from all different types of backgrounds. I would say that's probably one of the best things about from the day I started Launch House, even till today, when you walk into Launch House and you've been here today not today, but in the last three months, you don't know who you're going to meet. You don't know what their background is. Land you don't know where something the say or something the do is going to trigger an idea you have that could turn into a business. So I get this diagnosis.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:19:07]:

We start looking at making some investments in the food space. Fast forward to 2015. My first son, Henry, is born. Lucky for him, we know by 18 months he has a severe gluten allergy. So unlike an adult who I'm like, okay, I can't eat cookie dough, I can't eat a cookie, I can't eat cake, I can't eat these items. It's really tough to tell an 18 month old, then a two year old, then a three year old. You can't eat this. You're different, right? Can you imagine that? Like being a parent.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:19:39]:

You're telling your kids no all the time while their friends are eating it. So then fast forward. My second son, Grayson, was born in 2017. Same thing, right? And we knew almost instantly, and I'm like, Fuck, two kids. Dietary restrictions. This is going to be tough. And I'm a very active dad, taking my kids to birthday parties. Now they come to the office, we're always on the go, and I recognize that cookie dough.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:20:08]:

I mean, as a kid, do you remember eating cookie dough with someone in your family?

Jeffrey Stern [00:20:11]:

Oh, absolutely.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:20:14]:

Right. So it's something that you can shut your eyes and you can remember a time in your life, whether you're 90 or you're five, of eating cookie dough with someone you love. It's making cookies, it's eating that raw dough before you bake the then enjoying the finished cookie. It just takes you back to a time of just absolute, in my eyes, delight. It took me back to being five years old. And so I had recognized in really 2018, 2019 that cookie doughs were one of the fastest growing markets. Cookie scoop shops were opening up in New York City, where you're from, and market was going at 9% a year. But it was really not geared towards people that had allergy restrictions and it wasn't really geared towards on the go.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:21:00]:

Right. You couldn't just pop in your book bag, take it to wherever you're going and eat it. It was really needed a bone, a bowl and a spoon. So I started looking around the market and said, the protein bar market is really crowded. There's a lot of people doing scoopable cookie dough. What MTV take that great product of cookie dough that everyone loves and make it into an on the go indulgent snack. So that's where Woah Dough was really born. To create a cookie dough snack bar that was first and foremost gluten free, and then just happened to be because of the way we created dairy free, soy free, egg free, non GMO, ou kosher.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:21:40]:

And so it really would allow anyone with any allergy restriction to eat cookie dough on the go.

Jeffrey Stern [00:21:45]:

And ultimately, your intuition about the prevalence of this problem in that it's something that so many others probably also experience. The scale of the problem is pretty astonishing to me. The stats surrounding it are wild across the ubiquity of food allergies compared to the kind of dearth of those allergies over the last few decades, as well as the ubiquity now of gluten intolerance what is going on in the history of the evolution of this problem over the last 10, 20, 30 years.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:22:21]:

I would say a lot of it has to do with think when we were kids, right? Your stomach hurts, shut up and go to school, right. People didn't dig in as much. Right. But also as kids, think about the food that was put into our bodies, right. I remember just the stuff you would eat full of dyes, full of colors, full of chemicals. There wasn't this awareness about what you're putting in your body. And it's not that our parents, I just don't think they didn't know. Right.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:22:50]:

You kind of trust the system, especially when you have a lot of families. You have two working parents who's trying to get kids fed. The easiest thing to do is give them a frozen meal, give them something that's prepackaged, not really dig into what are the ingredients behind it. I think we've also if you look at the way food is manufactured in Europe versus the United States, I think we've turned a little bit of a blind eye to what's being put into our products that we're eating. Up until recently, I think that is really swinging the other way. Over the last, I would say ten to 15 years, but going back 20 and 30 years ago, you went from the 1950s, where everything was a home cooked meal, to the where it's fast food, whatever you can put in your kids bodies to get them out the door. And I think what started happening is the obesity rate went up, cancer rate went up, people getting sick. And I think at some point, people start saying, I'm sick of feeling like this.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:23:51]:

Why am I getting sick every time I eat? And then you have medicine that evolves, right? So now you can test for all these different things and understand all these different issues going on with your body, and you can literally do it at home by mail. So the combination of all those things coming together, I think, really shine the light on different issues that people have within their body. Whether it's dairy, a gluten, soy, nuts. And nuts is the one that people always talk about, but that's one of the smallest of the population. If you think about the overall market size of people affected or choosing a lifestyle of vegan or non GMO, it's over 55 million people in the US today.

Jeffrey Stern [00:24:29]:

So how do you actually get started? From soup to nuts is probably not a useful terminology here, but what does it look like to create the first consumable product?

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:24:40]:

Sure. So I want to tell you, it was some late nights in my own kitchen, because that's the story that everyone wants to tell, but that's not the loto story. When I identified, okay, cookie dough, right? We're going to make it better for you. It was really doing a lot of understanding, like, okay, what are the right ingredients to put in this? How do we want to taste? How do we want to make it? And really working with our manufacturer to kind of come up with the right combination, and ultimately, then it's a lot of customer development. Right. So going back to Launch House and what I learned really helping other entrepreneurs, you have to worry about who's going to buy your product. Right. If you don't have a customer, you don't have a product.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:25:28]:

It's literally that simple. I mean, a lot of people, even today, I have this great idea, will someone pay for it? It's a great idea. Will someone pay for it? And people will go a long way without ever having a customer. So the first thing we did was we started making prototypes, and we had lots of people try it, and at some point after 19 iterations, we put a marker in the ground and said, hey, this is the product we're going to go to market with. And this was late fall of 2019, and we launched. Right? And I would say the idea was cookie dough snack bar, better for you? Gluten free, plant based, dairy free, soy free, egg free. And at that time, it's still today. There were no other true cookie dough bars on the market and no other shelf, stable cookie dough bars.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:26:19]:

So we get the product going, and we get on Amazon, we get in high end. So you want to hear the good and bad about Amazon?

Jeffrey Stern [00:26:28]:

Both please.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:26:29]:

Sure. So the good is you can sell product anywhere in the country very quickly. The bad, you can see the reviews very quickly. So typically, if you go back 1520 years, you make a product, you get into retail. Twelve months later, you know if your product is selling or not, and you know there's a future or not. With Amazon, you know, almost instantly, we do a soft launch q four of 2019. I started looking at reviews in February of 2020, and what started as four and five star reviews were turning into two and one star reviews. And I saw at the retailer we were in Hynens, our first launch partner here locally, that our sales were dwindling.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:27:11]:

And I said, we have a problem. And the I started eating the bars myself, right? Not that I wasn't eating them before, but again, when you're living it every day, sometimes you're not eating it every single day. Land then I said to myself, this is not the right product. The reviews are saying it's not the right product. My taste buds are saying it's not the right product. The market say it's not the right product. And right at this point, this is the first week of March of 2020. So I think everyone knows what's about to hit, right? We had just packed up all of our product to go to Expo West, the largest food trade show in the country, to introduce our product to the world.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:27:52]:

And exactly at that point, Expo West got canceled, and the whole world shuts down. For most entreprenuership, you're like, oh, fuck, we're out of business. For Woah Dough, that was the best thing that ever happened to us.

Jeffrey Stern [00:28:07]:

Why was that? What transpired from there?

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:28:09]:

At that point, we sold off all the remaining inventory we had. We went back into the kitchen, we looked at all the reviews, and I went back to, why did I start Woah Dough? So the initial product we made, we were trying to walk that line of being healthy, the right calories, the right protein, trying to be everything to everyone, not what was sought out to be, which is just a cookie dough snack bar that's gluten free and better for you. We went back into the kitchen. Land we just redid all the. Recipes. We spent the time during COVID to look at our manufacturing capabilities. Originally, we were manufacturing California. We moved our manufacturing ohio.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:28:52]:

I said, I want to be able to drive to my manufacturer every time I'm going to produce. I want to be able to know that when my product's finished, it can go to a warehouse nearby where I can pick it up, I can distribute from. I want to be able to feel it, touch it, be there. And ultimately, the final straw that made us make the decision was margin California. We were at like a three to 5% gross margin. Ohio, northeastern Ohio, the day we started production, there 40% gross margin. Today, we're significantly higher.

Jeffrey Stern [00:29:22]:

Wow.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:29:23]:

And so a combination of those factors of COVID allowing us to pause land say, what are we doing? Why did I create this product if my kids won't even need it? And we need to have a viable business. A lot of times, entreprenuership even though I mentored and coached so many entrepreneurs, land invest in so many different entrepreneurs and opportunities that some successful, some not, you still make mistakes. You can't always see what's around the next corner. And even though you've seen it before, no two businesses are ever the same. And so ultimately, we did our first I called our first real production run in, I think it was October 23 of 2020. So not the best time to be launching a product in the market.

Jeffrey Stern [00:30:10]:

That return to why is always quite powerful. I think one of the things, if you'll take us on a little detour here as part of this journey, though, that I've noticed is that you are one of the more prolific marketers I've seen with just a consistency. Of presence across social media and kind of embodying this whole philosophy of building in public, documenting the journey along the way and being transparent and vulnerable about what it is actually like to run and operate and grow this business in the context of your family and your life as things are going well. As things are not going well, why have you opted for this public approach to building?

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:30:57]:

I think for me, it was just really important for people to see the journey because a lot of times you don't hear about the journey until after the fact, until the company makes it and sells for some ridiculous amount of money. And I believe strongly that it is really tough to build a business. And I think that a lot of people out there want to be entrepreneurs, or maybe they're closet entrepreneurs, right? So they work during the day and they really want to be entreprenuership. And so for me, it was really giving people a first hand look on look at what does it take without knowing what the end is going to be. Right. So it'd be easy for someone, for me, three to five years from now, to sell the company then come back and tell the whole story and people to pat me on the back and be like, oh my God, what a huge success, right? And people wouldn't really know what it took, or in five years I come back and God forbid Woah Dough doesn't make it right. And it's like, oh well, there's just another failure, right? And for me it was really about I want people to see what it's like to be a dad, to be a husband, and to build a business at the same time. Because there are good days, there are bad days.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:32:10]:

There's things to be proud of. There's things not to be proud of. And I think that people should know that because I think a lot of people out there today, especially when you're looking at potentially going into a down economy where Entreprenuership typically rises, they should understand and know what they're getting themselves into because it is a big capital investment. No matter what type of business you start, you're making some personal sacrifice, whether it's financially or with your family, with your time and the last thing you want to do. I mean, how many stories do you hear about people starting a business land, losing their life savings or ending up in a divorce situation? And I felt for me, just putting it out there and showing people what it takes, the good and the bad, maybe could help someone else if they're thinking about starting the same journey.

Jeffrey Stern [00:32:57]:

What have been some of the unforeseen consequences of taking this public approach?

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:33:05]:

Sometimes sharing things you wouldn't typically share. There's been some days where I felt every emotion in a single day where you really don't want to talk about it and then you kind of put it out there and people reach out to you and it forces you to share it. Some of the stuff maybe you wouldn't typically share and you're like, maybe I shouldn't have put that post out there because it really was an uncomfortable day of thinking. You're about to secure a really large account to then find out you're not going to, then to find out you just secured American Airlines, right? So it's just all those things that happen in a single day that typically don't happen in a single year for people that are working at a typical job. And so you put it out there and you're like, oh fuck, I just put that out there to everyone in the world to see. And then it's like, then people want to know why. And you're like, I really don't want to share why. But then you kind of feel like you have to because you've put it out there and people want to know.

Jeffrey Stern [00:34:06]:

So you've captured this and incorporated the customer feedback back to the drawing board. Reevaluated the recipe created something that was an iteration of where it had come before and perhaps marking a lower point in the journey. So far you mentioned American Airlines. I know Whole Foods has been part of the journey. What is it like from there to break into retailers at that kind of scale? What does the process look like and how is it that you began to approach that?

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:34:40]:

So it's really interesting. So we actually were in Whole Foods initially with our original formula, but we're not in Whole Foods today. So think about we got into Whole Foods with a product that wasn't good and then we launched, my opinion, a far superior product, but aren't in Whole Foods with it because of one of our ingredients. So the journey has been absolutely insane in the sense that we do a lot of trade shows, right? So early on I was trying to figure out, OK, how are we going to get products into consumers'hands? Well, you got to get into a place where they buy it, right? Well, you just don't knock on the local Hyman's door and they let you in, right? It's a whole review process that happens at the corporate level unless it's a mom and pop store. And so I recognized early on that you had to go to trade shows. And so my bet was I was going to go all in on trade shows. My big mantra is we go where the buyers go. And you know where the buyers go? They go to trade shows.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:35:38]:

Do you want to know why? Because buyers get 1000 emails a day and they're never going to read my email because they have 999 other emails that they have to deal with before they're ever going to see mine. By the time they see mine, their day is over. They're onto the next day of the new 1000 emails. And so we made a commitment that we were going to go to trade shows. And that's where the buyers are. And it's a lot of triable. Like, I have three kids at home. That means my wife is home with my three kids.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:36:06]:

It's traveling. I've been on the road four out of the last five weeks, and I get back on the road Sunday. But it has worked. So where did I meet American Airlines? At a trade show. Where did I meet Giant Eagle? At a trade show. Ultimately the buyers are going to trade shows because they want to go where they know the innovation is. They want to go where they can find products. And for us, we recognized that early on.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:36:31]:

And we made that part of our strategy. And it's an expensive part of the strategy, right? Because you've got to travel, you got to set up a booth. It's time consuming. You got to be on your feet, you got to always be happy. And it's not just about going to that trade show, right? You have to activate that trade show. Have you ever been to a trade show before?

Jeffrey Stern [00:36:50]:

Sure. Yeah.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:36:51]:

Okay, so you know, people that sit behind the table. They don't talk to anyone. People walk by their booth. That is not us. I'm in front of that booth, I'm chasing people down. I'm looking at badges, I'm giving people bars and now I'm giving them people fresh baked cookies. My belief is that there's no such thing as luck. You make your own luck.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:37:13]:

It's being at that trade show, it's meeting that buyer, it's getting them to come to your booth. It's getting the to try your product and tell them why this product should be on American Airlines. It's why this product should be in your retail store, why your consumer is going to buy it, and why everyone loves cookie dough.

Jeffrey Stern [00:37:30]:

So in the massive growth and proliferation of this better for you category that was in its infancy when you were starting and kind of followed in the wake of the growth and recognition of the food allergies that we have as a society. How is it that you set Woah Dough apart today from other plant based and allergen friendly snack options that have hit the market? How do you communicate that uniqueness to customers, particularly at a place like a trade show where they're probably getting a lot of different samples and inundated with whatever people are coming up with today.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:38:13]:

So first and foremost, our trade show booth is bright pink. So if you've ever seen our, I know you've seen our chocolate chip cookie packaging. It's bright pink. Our trade show is bright pink, right? So you've got me in front of a trade show booth, me and other people on my team and it is bright pink. So you look down that trade show alley and we pop. You're going to see us, right? You're not going to miss us. So that's first and foremost it's being there where people can see us, right? It's finding a way to showcase ourself and then it's just cookie dough, right? Who doesn't love cookie dough? We're not a protein bar. We're not a candy bar.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:38:55]:

We're not a scoopable. We're a cookie dough snack bar. That's what we are at our foundation. We're cookie dough in a bar that you can eat for dessert, as a snack in your kids lunch, with your grandma, with your five year old kids, with anyone. And you can enjoy it on the go, right? So that is our simplest selling point for a cookie dough snack bar. We now have now introduced a ready to bake cookie dough. So now you can eat it on the go or you can pull it from the fridge, throw it in the oven and bake cookies.

Jeffrey Stern [00:39:29]:

So with that and the evolution of the product where as a company is Woah Dough today and as you turn the aperture towards the future, what is in store for Woah Dough and what has you most excited over the next call? It year and then beyond.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:39:48]:

So today we're about 2500 retail locations across the US. We're currently on American Airlines all first class baskets. We just entered the K through twelve space. So last July we actually went to the SMA show, which is the School Nutrition Association show. Again, back to trade shows, right? Because I was recognizing my kids and all their friends were eating Woah Dough, and I was like, why are we not in schools? Right? And then you go to a trade show and you learn all the qualifications to get into schools. It just so happens when you run through the school calculator to see if you qualify. The first bar you run through, you get rejected. And you're at the trade show, you're in front of a school, they tell you about this calculator to see if you can go to their school.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:40:32]:

You get rejected. You're like, I just spent all this money to come here. I'm not going to be able to go into the school space. 30 minutes later, when I have some free time, I start running through the rest of our flavors. And I realized at the time, four out of our six flavors were approved. So it's really difficult to get your product into schools. Fortunately for us, and I didn't do this on purpose, that our number one ingredient is a whole grain oat. And so to be a snack and sold in schools, guess what your number one ingredient has to be?

Jeffrey Stern [00:41:02]:

Whole grain oats.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:41:03]:

You got it. Sometimes, again, you make your own luck. And so in this case, we got lucky by using the right ingredient, but now recognized that we could sell in the school. So today we're in 40 school districts across the country, including two of the largest being Houston Public and Orange County in Orlando, servicing over a half million students. So as I look forward to the rest of 23 and 24, so we're going to continue to expand in the airline market. We're going to continue to expand to the K through twelve schools across the country. Because why should kids eat things that don't taste good? Every kid should be able to have cookie dough for lunch or breakfast in schools right on their menu. We're going to continue to grow into retail, so identifying retailers that align with our mission and our goals.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:41:53]:

We were also recently selected to be in the Mondalese Collabs program. We're one of nine companies, and we're three weeks into that program, which has been just a tremendous help in helping our business, helping us solve challenges, see how to continue to grow our business with the best practices of the company that owns Perfect Bar and Oreo, and really just continue to innovate around the products that work. And that's really our newest innovation, which is our ready to bake cookie dough and our new flavor, our oatmeal cookie dough that we just launched in March.

Jeffrey Stern [00:42:27]:

When you think about that kind of growth, how is it that you have navigated the challenges of scaling to serve a much larger number of consumers while trying to maintain the quality land the integrity of the product over time.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:42:45]:

So one of the key things I've learned in the two and a half years since we truly launched in the market is that the growth doesn't happen overnight. So you go to a trade show, you meet a buyer, you're not in. Right. It's the follow up. Right. And I know you know exactly what I'm talking about. Right. So just because you see the growth and you start talking with the buyer, it doesn't mean you're in.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:43:10]:

There's still a 6912 or two year process to get your product on the shelf. So a lot of going to trade shows is the brand. Just like putting myself out there on social media, telling our story, going to the trade shows, meeting the buyers, meeting people in the industry, setting the stage for maybe not today, but maybe for 2025. And so by giving ourselves the time, it allows us also to then plan all of our manufacturing capacity to make sure as we grow, we can meet that demand with the same quality and product we started with two and a half years ago. So it's really not about just, yes, we grew over 350% year over year, but we know to continue to grow, it's not just going to be year over year growth, it's going to be year over year growth for three, 5710.

Jeffrey Stern [00:44:02]:

Years to come in parallel to trade shows. What are the marketing strategies that you have found to be most successful?

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:44:12]:

It's product in people's mouths. We've got to get people to try it. So we recently did a survey. The number one reason why people buy our product is taste. Number four is because of the health benefits. So we know people have to try it. Just three weeks ago, there was an event in Scrint Falls called Blossom Time. 100,000 visitors.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:44:31]:

We gave away 14,000 bars. Wow. So ultimately, as we grow, it's developing a field marketing program that as we enter a market, it's two pronged approach product in people's hands and people, if you can't get to their hands, they've got to see it. So whether that's geofencing the retailer they're going into, it's social media ads, it's TikTok. It's a multilayered marketing approach for people seeing and trying the product. Because we know if people try it, they're going to buy it.

Jeffrey Stern [00:45:05]:

What have you learned about building a brand separate from a product that people can interact with, literally eat? What is it that you've taken away from the concept of a brand at large?

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:45:20]:

It's really tough. It really gives you an appreciation for brands like Oreo or Smuckers, because brands don't get built over years, they get built over decades. And it's a lot of legwork up front. 99% of the people in the US don't know who Odo is today. In five years, maybe it's 90%, don't know. But it's really taking the time to introduce people to the brand and meeting the at the point in their life in which they would try Woah Dough. So for example, a six year old kid who has a gluten allergy could try it for the first time on his menu at school. A dad on the go with three kids or a mom on the go with two kids just wants that cookie dough snack because she doesn't have time to make cookie dough for her family that she can enjoy with them.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:46:10]:

So it's really making Woah Dough synonymous with that on the go cookie dough treat for you, your family, and anyone else who just wants that quick indulgence on the go.

Jeffrey Stern [00:46:21]:

How do you think about what the future of snack food overall looks like and how do you see Woah Dough's contributing role to that higher vision?

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:46:32]:

So there's recently an article that I read where it talked about how people are eating less meals and snacking more. So again, it goes back to meeting people where they are. So if people are snacking more, it's looking at how do you give consumers Woah Dough in different formats where they can snack on it. So maybe it's a bar for breakfast, maybe it's a two pack snack for after dinner. So it's really thinking about, okay, how do people snack, how do people eat cookie dough? And the bringing them together to be there when people want that indulgent treat.

Jeffrey Stern [00:47:05]:

Building on that a little bit, what does success look like for you and your business and what ultimately is the impact that you hope to have with Woah Dough?

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:47:17]:

In retrospect, I would say success by the day. So what I mean by that is it's tough to think about long term successes when every day we reward the small successes we have. But long term, I'm not sure if success is selling the business to a larger company who can help accelerate the brand, which again, you've seen a lot of brands do that and then the brand becomes just a massive powerhouse. Or is it building something that you can continue to give back to the community, grow your team, create jobs. My boys, right, seven, five, and two, they always say when they grow up, they want to come to work with their dad. So I haven't determined what that longer term success looks like today. Obviously everyone wants to build something and sell it, but it could be building something for the next generation. But today I focus on the daily successes.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:48:11]:

The weekly successes. It's the things that six or eight months ago seemed like were never going to happen or couldn't happen because we were too small or the challenges seemed too steep. And watching our small but mighty team really kind of overcome the and whether that was getting on American Airlines or getting into a new retailer or launching our new product, I really try to award the small successes knowing that if we execute those, the largest success will come down the line.

Jeffrey Stern [00:48:42]:

I'm curious because I often hear people talk about celebrating the small wins along the way, which I completely agree is incredibly important. I am curious what practically that looks like. How is it that you celebrate the small everyday wins?

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:48:59]:

I think it's just there's no big celebration, right? You're not like, oh, throw a party when you got a retailer. But it's really telling you again, when you're a small team, it's getting lunch for the team. It's telling everyone, great job today. It's really picking people up. Right? In the end, people want to feel good about what they're doing. They want to feel like they're part of something. And at Woah Dough, every person that's on our team is part of building a brand. They're part of changing the way people are eating cookie dough, whether that's in a bar form or a chocolate chip cookie that gets baked.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:49:34]:

And they know each of those successes changes the way someone eats cookie dough.

Jeffrey Stern [00:49:40]:

What have been the biggest lessons you had mentioned earlier on the maybe trite but true. One of you have to have a customer and know who they are. But having run multiple organizations, seen a lot of entrepreneurs go through this cycle separately from your own journey, what are some of the lessons that you've taken with you from those as you've applied them to Odo?

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:50:04]:

The number one lesson, there's no such thing as an overnight success. Almost every startup company is 510, 1520 years in the making. And I would challenge anyone to point out, one, that's different. Number two, your team. Right? You got to have a good team and age doesn't matter. It's really about having a team that really is invested in building your business with you. And they're building it with you. They're not building it for you.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:50:37]:

Your team is building it with you. And if you're a founder, you've got to be grinding just like your team is. I am at every trade show, almost every trade show. I work almost around the clock. My team knows they can text me day land night. Usually they put up the Do Not Disturb because it is known that I will text at 11:00 at night and 03:00 in the morning. Just because when you're a founder, you can't turn it off, right? You're building something. You have everything on the line.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:51:07]:

It all in the end rests with you. Sometimes that's scary, right? You always second guess yourself. Is that flavor good enough? Is that margin strong enough? Am I making the right decision? But in the end, you make the decision with the information you have in front of you and you do the best you can and some of it's just out of your control. I believe cookie dough will continue to be a fast growing trend, but again, maybe it won't be. But the grind is real. There are long days, there are long nights, but you have to enjoy it. I think when you stop enjoying it, you probably should stop being an entrepreneur.

Jeffrey Stern [00:51:45]:

Yeah. That also resonates quite a lot. I want to circle back to at least an idea that you introduced earlier, which was the decision to bring core competencies back to Cleveland and the greater Ohio area. Why Cleveland outside of the margin? How do you think about that question, which I'm sure you receive quite a.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:52:14]:

You know, to me, I don't want to say it was an easy decision, but it was an easy decision. So California, right? I don't live in California. It's time change. It's a plane ride away. It doesn't support my local economy. So really, when making that decision, one of the key factors was I'm moving my manufacturing back to Ohio, where I am, where I grew up, where I'm raising my family. And I know that as I grow my business and I can manufacture more bars, I can employ more people. Going back to why I started Launch House was creating a community for Entreprenuership to start and grow their businesses and ultimately have an impact here in Northeastern Ohio for Woah Dough, bringing manufacturing, keeping our fulfillment in Ohio, because, again, as we grow, the jobs will grow, and we're keeping it all here.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:53:08]:

Entrepreneurship is the foundation of every community, and to me, it was kind of going back to my roots, being able to we have a production run, go to the manufacturing facility, go to our fulfillment center, and really just continue to make that local impact.

Jeffrey Stern [00:53:26]:

Having gone back to your roots and subsequently doubled down, tripled down, quadrupled down on this investment in Northeast Ohio, both building your own company with Woah Dough Land, supporting others through Launch House, what is your sentiment on the pessimism optimism spectrum for what comes next for the community?

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:53:50]:

I'm always optimistic right. And probably to a fault. I think that COVID has hit our entrepreneurial community really tough in the sense that there used to be a lot of avenues for upstart entrepreneurs, and I think that has really dwindled. I think long term, it will come back. It'll just take time. And I think, really, for Northeastern Ohio, we have to focus on what we're good at. We need to stop trying to be everything to everyone. I've been in it since 2007 in the entrepreneurial space, and every three or five years, there's some new hot, sexy thing that we try to chase instead of just focusing in on what we're really good at.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:54:28]:

I mean, we have two of the best hospital systems in the country. You've got unbelievable innovation coming out of there. Right. You know this, right? If we just went all in on medical and I think we're also really good at manufacturing just across the board. I mean, look at some of the great food companies you have in Cleveland, right? You have kitchen land, you've got Smuckers. You've got a big R D facility for you know, if we just focused on medical and food and, like, think about what was Cleveland built around manufacturing, why are we trying to be a you name it. You've been around seven years. You've seen it all like I have.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:55:14]:

Right. We try to be everything to everyone. Just focus on building a supportive, entreprenuership community where we embrace people even if they fail. Right. It's okay to fail. Most entrepreneurs don't succeed the first time. It's a fact. So embrace entrepreneurs.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:55:31]:

Provide capital at the earliest stage to help them build their minimal viable product. If they fail, pick their asses up and help them keep going. And I think that's really probably the biggest takeaway I'd have on northeastern Ohio until we start accepting entrepreneurs at all ages, all phases, and really appreciate the fact that it's okay to fail. We're not going to get there, and we got to lead by examples. Entreprenuership need to lead entrepreneurial communities. If you look at all the successful ecosystems across the country and across the world, who are they led by?

Jeffrey Stern [00:56:08]:

The entrepreneurs.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:56:09]:

Right. It's simple. Give them the tools to lead the community. And once that happens, you'll see things change.

Jeffrey Stern [00:56:18]:

I want to leave a little space for you to unpack anything further that you think is particularly important as part of your own journey or reflections on the ecosystem at large that we haven't necessarily talked about yet.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:56:35]:

Yeah, I would say from an overall ecosystem standpoint, I always continue to be optimistic that we will be and we'll continue to seed and grow successful entrepreneurs in northeastern Ohio. From a Woodo standpoint, it's really stay tuned. I mean, the story is still being written, and of all people, I've been around, 90% of Entreprenuership fail. Right. 1% produce a return, the other 9% break even. And so I recognize how tough it is. It's not for the faint of heart, and I look forward to continue on this journey, and I hope to be a success story one day. Awesome.

Jeffrey Stern [00:57:17]:

Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your story and for sharing Woah Dough. I have had the product many times, and it is delicious, and I do recommend that anyone listening in give it a try. But just wanted to thank you, Todd.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:57:34]:

Yeah. And I would know. I really appreciate you taking the time to speak with me today. Hear my story about myself, my family, my journey with Know Launch House. And I would know if you're listening to this, know, connect with me on LinkedIn, send me a message, and I'll send you a coupon and some product to try so you can enjoy it yourself. Just connect with me on LinkedIn and just say, hey, I heard Know, just put in the subject lay of the land, and I'll connect with you, and I will send you some product. Amazing.

Jeffrey Stern [00:58:06]:

So we'll close with our traditional closing question, which is for a hidden gem in Cleveland and. Throughout Northeast Ohio. Something that other folks may not know.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:58:17]:

About lake Farm Park. It's where I spend a lot of weekends with my kids.

Jeffrey Stern [00:58:21]:

That's perfect. Well, thank you, Todd.

Todd Goldstein (Whoa Dough) [00:58:23]:

Thank you as well.

Jeffrey Stern [00:58:26]:

That's all for this week. Thank you for listening. We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's show, so if you have any feedback, please send over an email to Jeffrey at layoftheland FM or find us on Twitter at podlayoftheland or at stern. J-E-F-E. If you or someone you know would make a good guest for our show, please reach out as well and let us know. And if you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on itunes or on your preferred podcast player. Your support goes a long way to help us spread the word and continue to bring the Cleveland founders and builders we love having on the show. We'll be back here next week at the same time to map more of the land.

Jeffrey Stern [00:59:03]:

The Lay of the Land Podcast was developed in collaboration with the upCompany LLC at the time of this recording. Unless otherwise indicated, we do not own equity or other financial interests in the company which appear on this show. All opinions expressed by podcast participants are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of any entity which employs us. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. Thank you for listening and we'll talk to you next week. You.