#146: Megan Mayhugh (People Architects)

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:00:00]:

The greatest gift I ever got was getting fired. Right? I got fired more than once, once particularly badly. Right? Like, it caught me off guard, and it was such a gift. Like, I'm so grateful that I had somebody else realize I wasn't a fit and help see that because I would have kind of stuck with it too long. And by realizing, 1, it was gonna be okay, and 2, that it forced me to reflect and get to somewhere where I got to do something I've always wanted to. I I don't know if I would have been brave enough to do if I hadn't been fired. And so I really do consider it a gift.

Jeffrey Stern [00:00:32]:

Let's discover what people are building in the Greater Cleveland community. We are telling the stories of Northeast Ohio's entrepreneurs, builders, and those supporting them. Welcome to the Lay of the Land podcast where we are exploring what people are building in Cleveland and throughout Northeast Ohio. I am your host, Jeffrey Stern. And today, I had the absolute Pleasure of speaking with Meg Mayhugh, the founder and managing partner at People Architects, as well as the head of talent and people At 90 dot I o, the leading cloud based business operating system and only officially licensed software for EOS with over $20,000,000 in capital raised. Meg has decades of experience in talent and people management, leadership strategy, and HR bit large with an amazing set of roles that Led her professionally from bond and corporate debt trading to a McKinsey consultant, to chief people officer, chief growth officer, and chief of staff Across a variety of firms like Bridgewater, the world's largest hedge fund, to National Citibank and later to PNC, to Dealer Tire here in Cleveland, To Talent Launch with Aaron Grossman, who actually shared his story here on Lay of the Land back on episode 41, to Ninetey and Impact Architects with Kris Snyder, who shared his story back on episode 98, to her own company today. Meg deeply believes that people are a business' greatest asset And launched People Architects back in 2020 to help other entrepreneurs manage this greatest asset. As a fractional human resources, Talent and recruiting firm, People Architects helps growing small to medium sized companies across process planning, People optimization and employee engagement and profit protection.

Jeffrey Stern [00:02:17]:

As Meg and her team coach other entrepreneurs to plan for growth And advised them on how to best manage risks to their organization and win the war on talent. Meg is incredibly passionate about all things people, And that passion comes through in spades in our conversation, where we cover everything from the gift of being fired To lessons learned from Ray Dalio and Bridgewater's unique culture, work life integration, the ebb and flow of trust between executives and employees, The role of transparency, fostering meaning and connection in the workplace, building a company as a mom of 3, transferrable lessons from sports to business, the Power of mentors, a whole variety of other macro level HR and people oriented topics, the differences between leading very large and very small company cultures, And a whole lot more. I've personally learned so much from Meg and really enjoyed this opportunity to package just a small piece of her earned wisdom into our conversation today. So please enjoy this conversation with Meg Brief message from our sponsor. Lay of the Land is brought to you by Impact Architects and by 90. As we share the stories of Entrepreneurs building incredible organizations in Cleveland and throughout Northeast Ohio. Impact Architects has helped hundreds of those leaders, many of whom we have heard from as guests On this very podcast, realize their own visions and build these great organizations. I believe in Impact Architects and the people behind it so much that I have Actually, join them personally in their mission to help leaders gain focus, align together, and thrive by doing what they love.

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:54]:

If you 2 are trying to build great, Impact Architects is offering to sit down with you for a free consultation or provide a free trial through 90, the software platform that helps teams build great Companies. If you're interested in learning more about partnering with Impact Architects or by leveraging 90 to power your own business, please go to I a dot lay of the land dot f m. The link will also be in our show notes. So, Meg, this is a a conversation I have been looking forward to in earnest for a long time now. I think really since I I learned about Impact Architects, and I met Chris and, you know, all the all the folks who are working here. So I'm I'm excited to to finally do it.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:04:37]:

Yeah. I'm I am too. So I'm glad. Thank you for inviting me.

Jeffrey Stern [00:04:40]:

My pleasure. So I think we're going to talk about a lot of different aspects of of life, of business here, and and your journey through all of it, Really, from the largest of companies to the smallest and unpacking a lot of the the lessons that you've learned along the way, your lived experience. Yeah. Thought it would be appropriate maybe to start with just a little bit of how your mind works, how you think about it, you know, when when you reflect on the the arc Of your career, you know, give us, like, a a thumbnail sketch of how you personally got here.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:05:15]:

Yeah. I often say my 1 sentence line is, I think I'm the only bond trader in HR. College major in undergrad to being a bond trader to then going back to business school, working at McKinsey, Bridgewater, P&C, and now having my own, HR company and working at nineties, the head of people. The one thing that I would say is consistent is that I really do believe that human capital is what makes all businesses run. And so one day, I'll I will write a book about everything I learned about talent management. I learned while studying for the CFA, because all the principles are the same. Right? Diversity reduces risk and options increase value and, how you really truly think about people can really drive your business. And so that's the thing I've been passionate about my whole life and is the one theme that does kind of pull it all together.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:06:10]:

I would also share, I think, that when you really look at it and if we look at markets and we look at businesses and we look at what success is, They're not rational. If it was rational and markets were rational, we we could all just program it, it'd be great. But it's emotion. Totally. Right? Understanding that not as a weakness, but as something that makes us unique and special and not computers is Really powerful. So I think there's 2 parts. Right? People in all that people bring to the table, and the more you can really optimize individuals, is the way you can be successful in in a business.

Jeffrey Stern [00:06:49]:

When I studied economics in university, I basically wanted To ultimately disregard the entirety of what I was taught because it relied on this, in my mind, faulty assumption Just not reflective of the reality that people operate as as rational computers.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:07:10]:

They're not. Right? I, one of my first lessons learned on the trading floor. So I was a bond trader at a small regional firm in Virginia called Craig Incorporated. It was bought by BB and T, and I was the only woman and probably 15 years younger than any other traders. And I could sell anything in my book if I made it a competition. I'd be like, here is this pen. It'd be this very terrible cheap pen, but if somebody was a special pen. Right? Whatever.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:07:38]:

And I was like, whoever sells this bond gets this pen. It was amazing, you know, how many people were all of a sudden interested in a bond I couldn't sell over, you know, A month that was aging, it it flew out the door. So understanding what motivates people, I've learned very early on is is the piece that Ultimately drives decisions and and output.

Jeffrey Stern [00:07:59]:

Yeah. So so when you reflect on that, you know, pretty eclectic Wide breadth of things that you've been able to work on over your career. What would you say has motivated you through that journey?

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:08:11]:

I think a few different things. Right? I think we all, at the end of the day, wanna have make a difference and and create meaning for people. One of the things that Ray Dalio has in his principles, and so at Bridgewater, my job basically was to help understand how we operate by the principles and hold People accountable and there's some that really have stuck. Right? Meaningful work and meaningful relationships is one of them. Right? And so I believe in both. And how do you have both simultaneously? What also drives me is the idea I remember once, you know, being a a mom in business It was hard, and and I could I kept feeling like I had to make choices, and I didn't like it, and it was never fun. And so the concept that there was never A work life balance. It was never gonna happen, and it was work life integration instead.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:08:58]:

Right? I'm I'm never gonna be balanced. I kind of accepted that life. My my 4 children today Got to see a very unbalanced mom running out of the house, panicked, but I can have better integration. Right? I can put both things together and so that I can be a great role model for them and, be around. And so work life integration is the other one. I think not directly related, but is also a key piece as I really reflect back on my career and what's worked. And the greatest gift I ever got was getting fired. Right? I got fired more than once, once particularly badly.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:09:29]:

Right? Like, it caught me off guard, and it was such a gift. Like, I'm so grateful that I had somebody else realize I wasn't a fit and help see that because I would have kind of stuck with it too long. And by realizing, 1, it was gonna be okay, and 2, that it forced me to reflect and get to somewhere where I got to do something I've always wanted to. I I don't know if would have been brave enough to do that if I hadn't been fired. And so I really do consider it a gift.

Jeffrey Stern [00:09:54]:

We'll have a a lot to revisit from that, but let's start by going on this Bridgewater detour. So when I was studying economics in college, I Very specifically, remember in 2013, I think, when Ray released a video outlining his perspective on how the whole global economic Sheen works on YouTube. And in retrospect, I wholesale take that entire 30 minute video over My entire undergraduate economics degree. Because when you're you're trying to learn about how the world works, encountering Ray's work was like this intellectually humbling lesson where it just became so obvious that while I did have this appreciation that human decision making and judgment are generally flawed, and we're not acting rationally all the time. I didn't really understand fully how the economics of it all works, And you have to really unlearn a lot and start from these first principles. Ray's thinking in this way was really just formative for me. I've I've read a lot of his his work since. But But I remember shortly after that learning about Bridgewater and the unique culture the firm is is known for things, you know, you already mentioned, like meaningful work, But also the idea meritocracy, radical candor, radical transparency, unacceptability of of not learning from your mistakes.

Jeffrey Stern [00:11:12]:

You know, these ideas were were stuck with me even never having worked there. And so as a leader in this organization known so explicitly for its culture, Not just as a leader, but a leader ingrained in the human capital piece of it. What was that whole experience like?

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:11:28]:

Yeah. So my role at Bridgewater, I was considered a senior management associate, and one of the things about Bridgewater was they would bring in Kind of senior leaders and move them into different departments, and so you came in as a generalist and would go around. And and I was fortunate enough I got to spend a fair amount of my time in the HR department as co department head and then was kinda in essence, we called it a senior leverager, but I was chief of staff to the COO. And so I got to see a lot of different departments and perspectives. And one of the things I appreciated the most and still do about the Bridgewater culture is the radical transparency. You know, 2 things were interesting to me early on. David McCormick is the gentleman that had hired me in, and I remember talking to him before I accepted the job because I was worried about certain things. And one of the things he said is, like, the good news is if they talk about you and it's recorded, they have to send it to you.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:12:16]:

And then, you know, so that there's no surprises. And he also made a comment too about, like and it's, you know, it's just good to know. What I learned was he was spot on. 1, I realized that I had, like, this paranoia that people were, like, critiquing me and, like, I felt a little bit, you know, worried when people would go and have a separate meeting. What I learned is they're not talking about me at all. Right? And that was really imp like, that was just helpful to keep yourself from being paranoid. The other piece for me, which I would refer to myself as oftentimes the insecure overachiever. As that insecure overachiever, I have a really hard time with people saying I did something well, and I will find excuses around it.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:13:00]:

You really can't at Bridgewater. Right? Like, you get feedback all the time. And the fact that you have to actually accept positive feedback in, like, a concrete way, for me was also extremely impactful. Right? So there's I think we all assume the bad on these things. The good news is it's just reality. Right? And the more I understand my reality, the more I can deal with it, and that was extremely impactful.

Jeffrey Stern [00:13:23]:

How do you receive positive feedback?

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:13:26]:

So I've gotten better, I believe. And in fact, We teach this, but, you know, if you can give somebody a specific example. Right? And no different than you would give any type of feedback. Right? So developmental or kind of really positive. A specific example, why did it impact you in a positive way and the impact it had It's hard to ignore. Right? So I think when people can give me a specific moment or time or thing that I've done, that for me is Very helpful. Otherwise, I will dismiss it oftentimes. And, again, like, I've had years to try and figure out my own kryptonite, which something I'm sure we'll get into, and, that, you know, gnawing insecurity is probably mine.

Jeffrey Stern [00:14:10]:

So if there is a pattern in your trajectory, it Seems like it may be this downshifting from working at the largest institutions in the business world to increasingly Medium and then smaller sized organizations to ultimately founding your own company. How do you effectively downshift? And what are, you know, the things from the people operations, human resources, human capital side of that equation that are interesting About navigating that kind of of transition ultimately.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:14:43]:

So I I think, like, many, when I graduated from College and then business school or wherever. You know, I think I went the traditional route. Right? The people that were recruiting on campus and looking for a job in a more traditional setting, and that's kinda how I ended up in in larger or more well known, right, institutions like McKinsey. And that was just kind of where most people went. I and I think my perspective was to do what I perceived was the right way to go. I'd always wanted to do my own thing, but I don't think I was ever brave enough to do it. I didn't have the courage to do it. I think I was, worried what happens if it doesn't succeed.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:15:21]:

So I do think it took me having a couple of major institutions. The first kinda major shock to the system, let's say, was when I left McKinsey, I went to National Citibank, or National City Corporation, technically, and had a really amazing time there. Loved it. Still have very fond memories of that experience. And when the acquisition happened, right, like, literally, you know, the world is falling out from underneath you and, Peter Raskin used to always say, like, you know, the upside is you're on the front lines of history. And he joked once in the leadership thing, it would be really nice to be sitting in the bleachers, which I had to agree with him. But the perspective of it was that all of a sudden this idea that stability comes from large organizations Kinda went away. Right? Like, there was this interesting perspective around it.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:16:10]:

So it changed your risk profile, at least it did for me. And so I think that was eye opening and that I could go somewhere a little more innovative and entrepreneurial, and and that's more my style and and who I am. What I would say was difficult in the navigation, and I would say the 1st time I really did a downshift in size, was from P&C to Bridgewater. So while Bridgewater is extremely well known and well regarded, it's much smaller in size. Right? PNC was 60,000 people when I left, and Bridgewater was, like, a1000. And so the idea of the systems, the support, and what's needed just changes. Right? Like, it's I remember thinking, like, the stuff I just assumed was true. Like, We had a well regarded known large HRIS system because PNC always did and Bridgewater was a big company, and so they should.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:16:59]:

Their HRIS system was literally designed by an intern, like, years prior. That's it's not the case anymore. Right? We had a dork day. I was part of that process, But that was eye opening. Right? So things I thought you knew weren't there, like, that just was processes or things that were simple. And it was a great lesson to just have me ask other questions. Like, why is it? And I think if you continue to downshift, so we could argue There was other downshifts, as well. You start asking questions, why is it? And so, for example, in human capital, if you are not a 100 employees, What you have to report to the EEOC is very different because you know.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:17:36]:

Right? So all of a sudden, the perspective, the lens, and the Operating reality you're in changes, and so what I've been very grateful for and part of what I think has helped me on my downshift is not to make assumptions and just ask lots of questions. I can be annoying in the number of questions I ask. But if I ask questions, I at least know what the reality is, then we can solve for the reality versus making an assumption just because this is the way we've always done it. You might not have to do it here, and you can really create something that's special for the organization at hand.

Jeffrey Stern [00:18:09]:

So you had mentioned that perhaps you didn't feel like you had the courage ultimately earlier to jump into something fully like You are now. And maybe here we can unpin the the the pin we had put up earlier and revisit this gift of being fired that you had introduced Because it feels like it it may apply. But where does that courage come from? And, you know, very related is is tolerance for risk on a spectrum as well. What is your relationship with both of those kinds of concepts?

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:18:38]:

So look. I do think This is the beautiful thing about adversity. Right? And and, I I don't know the right saying about it. There is one. I can't, for the life of me, remember it. But adversity in reality is where you find a level of strength that you didn't know you had. So I had just moved to Cleveland a year and a half prior and Literally went in one day and was told I wasn't a fit, and today was my last day. And I I just had no knowledge it was coming, which was awfully naive of me.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:19:08]:

Right? Because now if I look back and I reflect on it, like, it was the right thing. Like, performance wise could've been fine, but I wasn't the right fit. And it did force me to take a very hard look at what mattered and what didn't And, like, go back to where do I get joy and excitement. And I think going back to a big business, I didn't wanna leave Cleveland again. I'd left multiple times, and I Wanted to stay here by family and forced me to open up my eyes to things I wouldn't have before. Ask different questions, try different things, and and so I think That forced a reality I wouldn't have had prior. And then when the pandemic hit, I found myself in another similar situation and got furloughed and single mom, 3 kids, and alimony payments were gonna be a real challenge. And I remember calling Chris Snyder, who you know.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:19:56]:

After about 2 weeks of me trying to figure, you know, out things on my own, he called me back immediately, which Was still to this day amazing. And he's like, okay. Great. Well, you're gonna do your own thing, and, I have some people you should talk to. And, he put me in touch with Mark Abbott at 90, who I'm now their head of people, as well as, Eric Schneider at Schneider Saddlery, who I continue to work with, And, ERC. So Kelly and Carrie at ERC. All 3 of which ended up being wonderful opportunities for me, and gave me the courage to do my own thing. Right? So I think you had to be in a bad spot.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:20:32]:

I'm not sure I would have done it before. Right? And I think you can either put yourself there or you find yourself there.

Jeffrey Stern [00:20:37]:

Right.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:20:37]:

And then if you're willing to just kinda lean into it, you get a little more confidence every moment of every day. That does not mean that I sit every day thinking, wow, you know, this is easy. It's scary all the time. Right? I worry every time a client leaves, and I worry every time, you know, that something changes or But I am now at a point where I think I know it's gonna be okay. And if something didn't happen, we can adjust and figure it out, and you build a different level of resilience.

Jeffrey Stern [00:21:04]:

Mhmm. Yeah. I like that leaning into the existential opportunity.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:21:08]:

Well and the go back to your Bridgewater thing. Right? So that one of the things That Bridgewater would say is you need to lean into the pain. Right? Like, we don't grow in comfort. We grow in uncomfort. Right? Right? Or discomfort is probably the better word. Right? Discomfort. So if you think about my bet one of my favorite analogies is, for anybody that's an athlete and you work out. The next morning, you wake up, you're really sore.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:21:30]:

Like, you know that was good. Right? Like, it was a good thing. You're in pain. Right? And if you lean into, like, that Pain or or doing 1 extra rep or trying to get, you know, 500 more meters in or whatever you're trying to do. It's that lean into the pain is is where your muscles grow, and I think it's the same concept in in growing holistically. You gotta lean into the pain. You can't be scared of it. And so that I think is the scary part.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:21:56]:

Right? Is you just gotta, like, let yourself Understand it's gonna be painful, and there will be light at the end of the tunnel, but you gotta jump off that cliff and you will land. You have to have some belief that you're landing, but it's doesn't mean it's not

Jeffrey Stern [00:22:09]:

Gary. I I recently learned the the biological word that captures the the maybe our lived experience that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. But it's now one of my favorite words is is hormesis. But it captures that, you know, as as you break down your muscles, and they they build back stronger.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:22:24]:

They build back stronger. I think you can do that mentally, and I think you do that with your, you know, ability to build your risk tolerance. Right? As long as you're being Thoughtful. And another Bridgewater element that I use all the time is don't compromise your uncompromisables. So if there's things that you can't Compromise, like, don't risk those. Like, even if it's a 0.001%, can't do it. But if you know what that small list is, everything else then is just a So it's a math question.

Jeffrey Stern [00:22:51]:

So in this liminal space where you were trying to figure out maybe what people architects ultimately becomes, How did you weigh all the things that you wanted to do and arrive at? This is what I wanna do and pursue, and this is how I'm going to do it. Borrowing this term from Chris from Impact Architects, balancing the build at the beginning in founding people architects really from inception at that point.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:23:17]:

Let's also just be clear. I had tried a company which still exists, but it's just my, like, single shingle coaching company. It's called Kenlyn Advisors. And I had started that back in 2017, and, it didn't go well. Like, it went fine. I had a couple of clients, and it was okay. But I I really was trying to create something, like, I knew the market. And so it I mean, it kinda puddled along, but it it was never gonna support me and my my kids.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:23:43]:

So I did take some full time jobs after that. And then for people architects, what was interesting is when I Kinda leaned in with and and, again, Chris was a huge part of getting that giving me the confidence to go out and and do it. I think the biggest learning I had on that shift was I waited to see what the market needed. Right? I think, historically, I went out with a strong perspective of what I wanted, and and this time I did more of, Okay. Well, I know enough to get started, and I can figure out based on the questions. And and by asking more questions of what folks needed and what the problems were in finding the problem. We've been able to hone in on products that that really focus on small, mid sized businesses. Right? And I think that was a huge shift.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:24:35]:

Right? So really helping people, you know, plan for growth and think about their people optimization and profit Protection. Right? What what are those 3 pieces? And and that's really how we've honed our product, so to speak, in our services. Not because it's what I think needs to be there, but it was clear the demand was there and no one was serving it. So it was a shift. It was a very deliberate mindset shift. You know? And we tried some. I had 1. We tried 1 recruiting process, and we lost a lot of money on it.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:25:04]:

And so we shifted. Right? But I know the demand was there now. It was just a matter of figuring out, you know, how do you think about the the happy medium of Being able to be long term sustainable and also serve at the right level.

Jeffrey Stern [00:25:18]:

So so what what is People Architects?

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:25:20]:

Yeah. So, People Architects is Human capital and people support for small and, midsize businesses, that are growing. We really focus on 3 parts. Right? Which is overall planning for growth, people optimization, and profit protection. So, like, how do you establish and plan for growth as a company? How do you really think about coaching and supporting your leaders of a company, and how do we really help you assess what your risks are? Not just because somebody said it was, but what do you really need? And and we're really geared at, you know, for smaller organizations that don't need a head of people or a full time head of HR, but they need instant Access to somebody when the bad thing happens. Right? So, for those of you in the Gen x world, right, the bat phone, like, who's the person I'm gonna call when this Crazy thing happened. The CEO did x or this employee did x. Who do we call? And help support and maneuver through so that you don't you get all your mind share back.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:26:15]:

Like, that's how I looked at it was the people problems can be a huge burden of mind share and interruption to a CEO that needs to be just on growing their business. How do we take that away? And our 2 main perspectives, one is what I'd refer to as just HR on demand support and projects. Right? So Everything from a HR assessment to, you know, talent development. And then we have a recruiting arm, but we don't most of our recruiting is not we don't do placement Right? So just think of it as a a fractional slice of a human resources and recruiting department.

Jeffrey Stern [00:26:48]:

And and with the The, again, breadth of experience you had, you know, seeing how people operations, HR units function across very different size organizations. Why did you hone in on and choose to focus on the small and and medium size, you know, slice of Of the greater economy.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:27:07]:

Yeah. I got lots of opinions on that. First off, I really do believe that the engine of our growth is small and mid sized businesses. Now even though I was and I think this is my reflection. Right? When I was in school and graduating, there wasn't an easy way for me to go get into a small and midsize business. Right? It was all the big businesses that were coming on campus. Candidly, small and midsize businesses are fundamentally disadvantaged, particularly in the recruiting space. They can't afford a LinkedIn license.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:27:34]:

There's so many things that are that big companies have, that they don't get access to. Right? And so it's To me is if this is the engine of our economy and how we're gonna build our communities and, encourage, you know, growth in our economy, we gotta support them more. And and it's, I think, a very underserved market. And so I'm passionate about the mark. I'm in the market. Right? So I'm I I I feel it too, But I'm passionate about like, that's where we should be focusing more of our efforts. I would also say, you know, 2 other sides of people architects. 1, The part I find very fascinating, look, so I have a business background.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:28:09]:

I happen to go into human capital because I believe it is the most critical part of capital, but I have a business background. Less than 5% of business school graduates actually go into HR. Right? So we need to get more business people in the human capital function, And, I wanna create a company that help will do like, help do that and not just be, like, the, you know, HR person, not the people police. Yep. But a true partner to the CEO to to maximize the value of their human capital. Right? That's gonna be good for them, good for their employees, good for their cost it's just good across the board. It's a win win win.

Jeffrey Stern [00:28:43]:

So one of the things that always struck me and that I would love to get your perspective on Is I think uniformly founders, entrepreneurs, leaders at organizations say and actually do believe that people are the most important Component, asset, contribution to the whole business. How do you reconcile that stated importance with the revealed reality that, Like you just said, only 5% of upcoming business leaders are going into this space.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:29:12]:

I have all sorts of perspectives on it. I'll share some initial thoughts. But, Look. 1 is, if you think about it, right, sales and recruiting are actually the exact same job. So you are out. You are hunting. Right? You're trying to find potential customers, or you're helping to find potential candidates. Right.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:29:31]:

So in either case, I'm I'm hunting. There's an element of hunting. There's a result of it, like, then I gotta once I've hunted, I gotta close. Right? I gotta cultivate. I gotta close. So the actual process from pipeline down to close is almost exactly the same. Last time I checked, recruiters make, particularly in house, significantly less money then your top salespeople. Right? So I'm not sure why that is.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:29:53]:

Right? So we're we are putting a different value implicitly, and it's not one. It's, like, just Common. Right? If you just pull it up now. Externally, we can talk about part of everyone gets frustrated at very large recruiting placement fees. We can talk about that another time. But that's one of those things in house. Like, we don't we don't value it the same. I don't know why outside of the fact that it's hard.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:30:14]:

I think the other Piece I'd share, and I think this is a lot of what we look to do and help people with, is I think a lot of folks have a hard time assigning a value to a people process or system. Right? And so we say, well, like, I'll use a recruiting thing. Well, how long is the time to fill a role? Well, the time to fill a role doesn't matter at all. Right? But I can tell you from the time someone leaves a spot and it's vacant till the time somebody else is productive, we can do the math on how much you're either getting or losing or opportunity That's right. And so I think part of our job also is to help put more quantitative measures around people, processes, and procedures because I think that will help us establish what is the real value. And the more you understand that, actually, we can do that in some cases. We know that, For example, there was some studies done that in a players, I think, 3 times or 10 times. Like, it's a ridiculous number more effective than quote unquote a c player.

Jeffrey Stern [00:31:07]:

Sure.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:31:08]:

So the more we can put actual quantitative elements around what's the value of something, I think that will help drive it. We've done, and I say we, meaning, I think the human capital HR people peep group. A lot of those folks aren't great at being able to Quantify elements, the more we can drive that business conversation. Like, what is the ROI on hiring this person? Okay. Great. Let's have that conversation. No different than any other investment. We're not we haven't gotten as a as a function.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:31:37]:

I don't think that is in everybody's vernacular.

Jeffrey Stern [00:31:40]:

Yeah. Yeah. I've I've I've struggled always a bit with the the quantitative and qualitative part of people. There's always this Prescribed wisdom that if you don't measure it, you can't improve it, which I see the value of, but kind of misses something qualitative. Like, Am I a good brother? I don't know how to measure that necessarily. But in business, you can look at the numbers and tie people's qualitative attributes To quantitative assessments. Are there interesting effective tools or systems here? How do you actually approach it?

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:32:12]:

Yeah. I think there's a lot. So one is if you take a really hard look at what are you what drives the business, like, I always start with really, really what drives the business. So, You know, if it's productivity, if it's, you know, we have to have so much output, you can tie that to total number of people. You can almost Pull it down to total number of hours. What does that look like? Some places have done a really good job of that. And then I think where If we can also get more creative too. It's, like, what is the value of retention, for example.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:32:41]:

Right? So we hear a lot about it's hard to recruit. Okay. Well, Let's talk about, like, if you retain your top people. I have 1 client we worked with actually, and what we learned is that they were losing they were They were so focused on bringing new people into the pipeline, which was great, but they were losing them within less than 4 months, a number of them. But the breakeven of bringing a new person in was actually 3 months. So they were better off not hiring at all because they were losing money on anyone that stayed less than 3 months. So that like, it's a it was a pretty eye opening element. Right? So I think just taking that business lens and and looking holistically at at those pieces.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:33:21]:

Competencies is another big thing that you can look at. Yep. Right? What's the value of the skill? What's the value of the competency? And you can put it in a very tight like, Almost a heat map of your skill base. Right? I think that's the other part we struggle with. We know that people have a bias to hire people like themselves. And so if you end up with that, particularly in a small company where people will have more and more people that may look the same, you can almost look at the diversity map of a competency and skill grid and find out where you're gapped overall as a as a company, and that can help hone in on strategy of, like, where do we need to Round out our portfolio of of talent.

Jeffrey Stern [00:33:55]:

How do you think about the evaluation of talent kind of in the top of the funnel? Obviously, you I'm sure you've done an incredible amount of interviewing and and thinking about even, you know, supplementary to that references and just, like, how do you gauge a person in advance Of them coming to do the work.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:34:11]:

Well, I'm gonna put it into 2 buckets. I think there's the understanding what the I'm a big believer, like, 90 is, right, of structure first. So figure out what the company needs. Like, what is the right structure? What's the whole? Not the person first. So figure out the structure, Really, really what's required. And and if we do that exercise, like, what are you really looking for? That can be really helpful. Oftentimes in small companies, by the way, This leads to the creation of the most amazing mythical creature ever known is the purple unicorn. Right? Like, has every Cool attribute known to man is willing to work at minimum wage.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:34:47]:

Like, they're just they're a mythical creature. Right? Because there's this one thing we need, And by saying we're gonna find 1 person that has every one of these attributes, we're in essence creating a a sea of purple unicorns. Occasionally, a purple horse and occasionally a white unicorn, but they're all mythical. They're all living off in, you know, Hogwarts somewhere. But What I've learned is that if we can be clear on what the the requirements are for the role, then we can actually go look and find out what are Groups of people that might fill it. And then what I found to be the most successful, and, again, I'll put the small mid sized business hat on for this particularly, is Don't assume the only way to fill a job is through a full time employee. And so where we've had the most success is starting to get very creative around, Okay. Well, if I can get 80% generally in 1 person, how do I cover the other 20? And there's a lot of really interesting outsourced elements, fractional, right, which I speak to.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:35:44]:

Right? So I think as we get creative around what are you trying to solve for and then open our minds to there's a Whole slew of options, that's been very impactful. Right? That I think is open is a much more effective way to approach it. And so that's how I think about top of the funnel is how do we have to structure it? And then there's different types of the funnel that will deal with it. The other reality that we're having is you get to choose a few things. There is no perfect person. You can have a perfect team. Right? If the I think it's the remember the titans movie. There's no such thing as a perfect person.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:36:17]:

Right? But you can have perfect team. And I think when we look at people, you you can Understand, like, okay. Well, this is where they're gonna be great. Here's where we're gonna have to guardrail. We're going in eyes wide open. Right? So that we're also setting ourselves up for choices. So one of the choices a lot of companies are having to make right now is we're seeing a huge trend around people wanting to be back in, companies wanting employees back in the office. Right? Big trend.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:36:43]:

I find that generally, and this is the tough part. So there's certain roles out there like bookkeepers, let's say, that I can say from our experience in hiring, if you're asking a bookkeeper to come on-site, you're gonna pay 20% more, and you'll have a much Low lower, you know, number of people in the talent pool. It's just pure math. Right? But if you're willing to have them work from home and work remotely, you pay 20% less, probably fill the job faster, and you get because you get to look at all of the United States. Right? And so that's a choice. Right? People are like, well, I really want them in. It it's the same thing we all want. Right? I really want them in the office 5 days a week.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:37:17]:

I really want them to be, like, x, y, and z, and and these are those choices. It's great. You can have that. Might take longer to fill. May take for you might have to compromise a skill or maybe they don't come to the office. You pay a little less and you have to Manage their work differently. Right? So you gotta just decide your choices at the top of the funnel.

Jeffrey Stern [00:37:36]:

So I do have many questions. Let's stay here and riff more on these human capital topics still on the theme of assessment and evaluation of talent. I think it could be reasonable to hear someone say that interviews may be necessary, but may not be as useful as they could be really in getting at whatever you are trying to assess. Whereas references can be incredibly useful by getting to know the underlying person and the relationship to other people. To what extent do you agree with that concept? How do you think about references generally?

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:38:08]:

References can be highly impactful if done well. I think what I've found with references is that as opposed to saying, can you give me 5 references? You ask for them. Hey. Can you give me 2 of your previous managers in the last 5 years? Right? So you kinda hone in on what they are or make a specific, Hey. I'd like to talk to this person this person. We have LinkedIn. Right? So you can also say who you wanna talk to. You can learn a lot if the answer is they're not willing to give you that reference, and and that could be okay.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:38:37]:

Right? And they can give you the context for why, and all that's fine. I think you have to ask for the who they are, not not what they are. I think you have to ask for a broad Ref like, look at them. Right? So I always find one of my favorite references to do with leaders is find somebody that worked for the leader. Right? I'd like an employee of yours. And that helps, you know, or I pick 1 from what I've seen on LinkedIn. When I do references, One of my techniques is, look. At the end of the day, most people wanna help somebody.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:39:06]:

Like, I really do believe they're they're gonna go out of their way. They're not gonna lie. Right? But they're gonna do everything in their power to to try and be helpful. And so sometimes you don't get the full truth. You get elements of the truth. One of the techniques I've used that I find to be very Impactful is look. By the time we get to references, and this is my belief, you should believe the person's gonna be a fit. Right? You're taking a lot of time from somebody else.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:39:29]:

Like, if you're going in to use that as an interview technique and say, I'm not sure I wanna hire this person. I think that's pretty early in this stage. I would take references at the end. And at the end, one of the things I always do is say, okay. Look. I really wanna bring this person on board. Yeah. I wanna make sure it's a fit for them and a fit for us.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:39:44]:

And one of the things I need to do is make sure I'm successful in their onboarding, which means I got 90 days to help make sure they're they're gonna fit in and do well. What's their working style? How do I set their onboarding up for success? What did you find was the kind of environment they worked best in? That tells me a lot both about the person and whether or not we're gonna Succeed. It also really does let me hone in on an onboarding plan that increases my probability for success. So in that case, I find references very, very helpful. The other thing I find very helpful, which is different from references, because, again, interviews have tons of bias. We know that. Is actual assessments. Some assessments you can use in the interview process, some you cannot.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:40:20]:

But the ones that you can use in the in the interview process are another way to get a piece of input on 1 person. Right? So, again, in the world of We're taking lots of dots to make a decision. An assessment's just 1 dot. An interview's just 1 dot. A reference is just 1 dot. Right? Their Previous background is just 1 dot. Right? And and that helps you just try and increase the probability of success.

Jeffrey Stern [00:40:41]:

So if there is another dot To connect to those dots you had mentioned that is emblematic here of personality assessments. What do you find interesting and useful about those kinds of exercises? Things like culture index or Meyer Briggs.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:40:55]:

Yeah. So so culture index, predictive index, Kolbe, k o l b e, for those of you that don't know that, are all ones that I think are validated and pretty helpful. Again, they help you understand what somebody's like. What's their preference? How do they operate? Myers Briggs, I find is very insightful on what somebody's personality is like. Right? Where it's their trends. You cannot use that as a Filter in the hiring process. You can absolutely use that as a way to go ask questions and understand what someone's like, but that's not one that's a validated assessment. Right? So you gotta be thoughtful in which way you use it.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:41:30]:

What's good about it is both it helps you understand the person and how reflective they are and did it help tell the story. The one thing no assessment ever does, by the way, is sauce out wisdom. They just tell you your natural tendencies. Right? As we get older and as we get different experiences, we gain different levels of It's not gonna tell me somebody's wisdom, but it is gonna tell me where they're naturally or under stress likely to behave. And I do think that lets you ask a different level of Questions and sets you up again with the mindset if we go in with everybody, I believe strongly, everybody is meant to be successful somewhere. The question is, is this the job where they're gonna fulfill their fullest potential or not? And and if you go in with that very positive mindset, the assessments just help you hone in on, is this Gonna be their great place. Are they gonna add a ton of value? Are they gonna be happy? And and that's how I look at them.

Jeffrey Stern [00:42:19]:

Yeah. That's cool. You mentioned the return to office push. There's always one of these base that's topical, but Seems to be with some long term staying power that, you know, hopefully, may may stand the test of time going forward, balancing this trust between executives and employees. I'd love to hear your perspective on everything transparency that's happening right now from compensation to career frameworks. What what is your assessment of increasing transparency? What is compelling about it to you, and where Do you think it should ultimately arrive as a as a trend?

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:42:57]:

Alright. Well, remember, I worked at Bridgewater, so I'm a big believer in transparency. Right? Like, I I do think Transparency is critical. Now I will also say that there are things that should be private that is different than transparency. Right? So health information, that's private. Right? Those those are things that should always stay private and confidential. That's not the same thing as transparency. I think the more transparent people are, generally, the better off we'll all be.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:43:21]:

Here's our problem. Right? It goes back to emotions. Is there certain things that are generally triggers for people? And in the world of trust, I think compensation tends to be one of them, where I think there's people see somebody else's compensation, they make assumptions, and there's a There's an emotional trigger, and I don't think people ask good questions. I think they just assume. Right? So if we're gonna be transparent, we also have to be willing to be Open minded to exploring why there might be differences and not jump to conclusions. I think that's the way it's gonna have to work. It's like, okay. Great.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:43:54]:

Let me just Accept and understand. Right? It is different. And I think that's it's that's helpful. I think in terms of trust with companies and team members. I I do think that's the other part, which is in team members. My experience today is they don't wanna just be told what to do. They wanna understand the why. Right? And I think that's always been the case, but I find it more now.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:44:16]:

If you can explain it to me in a way that I can relate and understand why we're doing something. That's how you build trust. Right? You know, it's not the 2 year old just because I said so from the parent. It's much more here's what we're driven to do. It's what's here's our general purpose. Here's where we're headed, and we're all rowing to the same destination together. That why becomes more and more important, and I think that's part of what builds trust. Right? So that's the that's part of getting everybody kinda on the same page.

Jeffrey Stern [00:44:44]:

Right. Knowing that Money compensation is an incentive, but it's not holistic.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:44:49]:

It is not. So this is the part I actually think is critical is, it's gonna sound very consultant y, and I don't mean it to be, but there's something called the employee value proposition. It's in essence, why would an employee come work for you? There's multiple elements of that. Right? Compensation is just 1. Benefits are another, and that includes time off, like unlimited or as needed PTO, Health, dental, those types of benefits. Location, can you work from home? What's your level of flexibility? We did find and and there's other things. Learning development, Career progression. Some for some people, titles.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:45:22]:

Right? Like, there's all these things that are wrapped up in a kind of overall deal with the employee. I think what we've learned during the pandemic, that many people perhaps underestimated, and it's an interesting one, is that there's a number of people that would put a very, Very high requirement on flexibility. They will take a lot out in other areas if they have a different level of flexibility for their life. And so those are places where if that matters to an employee, maybe you can pay them a little bit less, but you have to accept that maybe they're gonna go pick up their kids every day at 3 and be gone from 3 to 5, and then they'll jump back on for 2 hours. But that's that's the flexibility they need, and they're gonna prioritize that over just cash comp.

Jeffrey Stern [00:46:03]:

Right. So a bit earlier, you introduced this impossibility or, you know, maybe more aspirational nature of work, life balance As an executive, as a mom playing many other roles as well. And you also introduced this idea of work life integration as a concept which I think dovetails nicely with this undeniable desire for flexibility in in the workplace. So two lines of of questioning here. As you help all these companies navigate all the human capital topics we have just unpacked, how have those played out within People Architects itself? You know, how has the business evolved in in tandem, and and where do you see it going? And then in your personal reflection on flexibility and balance in your life, What does this integration actually look like?

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:46:44]:

I'll start with me and we'll go to the other one. Look. I suck at it. I don't have a better way to articulate it. I am so aware of it and I suck at it. I am a single mom of 3 kids. I am barely holding it together. Like, I don't know how to say it any other way.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:47:01]:

My kids are awesome. They put up with all my shenanigans, and I think they appreciate it. Right? I would say The way I've now figured it out, it's part of why we have people architects, which we'll go to next, but is I know if I miss a kid event if I miss major kid event. Like, I'm not good. I'm really not good. Like, I get so mad at myself because I don't wanna let them down. Yep. And so I've learned those are my uncompromisables.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:47:28]:

Like, those are the things I'm gonna go, and I put them in the calendar. I have leveraged myself To a new degree, time wise, I have 2 amazing nannies that take turns. My aunt came in recently for 2 weeks to stay with my kids. My brother and sister-in-law have been fantastic. My dad like, I just have a support network that will help me Manage it all, and I also think that's the way I've created that integration. Doesn't mean I don't have bad days where I feel bad. And I think that's part of how we make it work. Right? So We've accepted as a family.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:48:01]:

Like, there's pros and cons to it. I share with them a lot of what's going on in my business, and I in no different than they share with me what's going on in their day, and I think that's what works. I've also accepted. It means there's some things that I used to love to do that I don't get to do anymore because I'm gonna Prioritize something else. And it will always feel a lot out of balance. Right? I think I've been on a bit of a trend of work has been a little too high on the seesaw, so I probably need to balance it out with some family time. But if I look at it that way, like, I can see a path to get there. What I've learned too is We're all multidimensional humans.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:48:35]:

Right? We're not 1 or 2 dimensions. We're multidimensional. So I'm a mom. I'm a business owner. I'm an employee actually too, and so there's lots of things I would use to define myself. I'm a a partner and have a relationship, and so all those things matter. So when we started People Architects, One of the things that really mattered to me was that we created and role modeled what we believe other companies should do. I'm pretty sure at this point, maybe not everybody, but of all the employees we now have at People Architects, almost all of them have a unique Set of situations, whether that's a side hustle, right, and creating the space for it, like, to teach spin class or Spend 50% of their time in Hilton Head or be a foster mom.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:49:16]:

Right? We've got all that. And one of the things I love about what we've built is that everybody has the ability to have a whole life, and we accept that. Right? So if I need to, you know, pick up the phone and be like, hey. My my I gotta go in because my kid needs me in School, somebody's picking up for me and no different than someone picks up the phone and is like, hey. I gotta take my daughter to urgent care. I've got this thing that came up. We cover for one another. And I think it almost goes to your trust conversation before is that if we can trust the whole human And everything in their life, not just their work life, you really end up feeling like somebody's got your back somewhere.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:49:51]:

Like and and that's probably the thing I'm there's lots of things I'm proud of with people architects, but that's one of the things I'm most proud of.

Jeffrey Stern [00:49:57]:

What is it meant to build in Cleveland?

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:50:00]:

It's pretty cool, actually. You know, Cleveland is awfully underestimated as it's it's always been. I went to school out east and, you know, people would laugh at Cleveland a lot and my dog band and everything else. One day, the Browns are gonna do me proud for a long time. I'm not sure that's gonna be I'm I'm always skeptical, but, it's It's underestimated. And then, you know, one of the things that was very cool when I came to McKinsey and was in the Cleveland office, we had a lot of transplants that would come to Cleveland for McKinsey. I was one of the few people that grew up here, And it was really fun to see them get acclimated to Cleveland and the number of them who have stayed. Right? Like, I think once people are here, they appreciate what this city has to And so being able to build a company here and be founded here and stay here and after having to move so many times for a job.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:50:47]:

Maybe I'd phrase it that way. Right? Like, I've had to move multiple times in order to have my career grow. The fact that I don't have to anymore and that I believe I'm gonna create Opportunities for others to raise their family and and choose to live here, I think is pretty special, and I'm I'm very, very glad to do that. It's also cool. My sister-in-law built a company here as well, and so it's kind of fun, that we both did that.

Jeffrey Stern [00:51:12]:

Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:51:13]:

Yeah. She did it first. So I think, she's she's pretty spectacular as well.

Jeffrey Stern [00:51:19]:

What what does success ultimately mean to to you? And and what is that impact that that you hope to have?

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:51:26]:

Yeah. I quantify success mainly in wanting to have a meaningful impact on others. So I've gone back and forth on the total number of lives. Right? I have my My long term b hag. Right? I'd love to impact. I I I keep changing the number, so I'm a little scared to put it out there. But some way, shape, or form, whether, you know, it's a I think A 100000, a million, you know, whatever number of lies I can have a positive impact for or meaningful impact. That's what success looks like.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:51:52]:

That's 1. And, You know, I I want my kids to become great, you know, members of society and be their best and be set up to be their best wherever they choose to do. So that's probably what I would hold as my 2 levels of success, and then just be able to look and see that that continues to happen. Right? The the pay it forward concept To me, it's also really impactful as we're helping companies get better and and see, like, it's nothing is more Meaningful in a lot of ways than seeing a CEO kind of learn and develop and become an amazing leader and then see how that ripples into the organization. Like, that's I love that. Helping them see a blind spot. Right? So that's my favorite favorite thing to get to do and and have an impact overall. So I think that's what I'd call success.

Jeffrey Stern [00:52:39]:

Yeah. Yeah. And and in pursuit of success, you mentioned earlier, you know, your your own personal kryptonite and, You know, the flip side being your superpowers. Yeah. You know, what are what are those? Have you thought about those for yourself?

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:52:52]:

So my superpowers, I will share what I think other people would say. It is hard for me to say what I think are my superpowers.

Jeffrey Stern [00:52:59]:

Yeah.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:52:59]:

So Mark Abbott, who's the founder of 90, who I'm their head of people, introduced me. And for anybody that's ever seen the show Billions, there's a character in Billions. Her name's Wendy.

Jeffrey Stern [00:53:09]:

Yes.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:53:09]:

And her job is, in essence, to kind of, like, Kinda keep people from getting in their own way is the easiest way I would describe it. And when Mark introduced me when I first started there in 2020, right, so they were, Like, less than 10 employees, super small. He introduced me as his Wendy, and that's continues to be the the conversation. And so I do think I because I think I have had a lens around, like, what I hold is my superpower is I I look at every human on on what is their superpower. Everybody can make a difference. I'm sure there's some small percentage of people that might truly are not able to, but I really do go in with a mindset of everybody's gonna have a huge impact, and and how do we maximize that? And so if it's not gonna be at this 1 organization, how do we free them to go somewhere else, Sir, how do we help people have the right conversations in a very positive way? And that's how I look at the world. Like, what's their motivation? What's causing that attitude? Like, what is that overlying emotion that's creating an irrational behavior versus a rational one. And I love getting to do that, and I love those conversations.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:54:12]:

So I think that's 1. I think the second one is, and it's related, which is gonna sound weird. Right? I do think of humans as human capital, like, in a good way. They're assets. They're important. They're the most critical assets, actually. And so I see it in financial and business terms. I don't see it as subjective and soft.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:54:32]:

I I don't believe in soft Guilt. I believe in optimizing your assets just like you would anything else. So I think I I'm able to actually communicate In business oriented terms and think about things in terms of how you run a business on, areas that historically maybe didn't have that same rigor. So I'd I'd put that probably as the 2 things that I would hold as kinda superpowers.

Jeffrey Stern [00:54:55]:

Yeah. The Wendy one resonates. I've thought of it. I was gonna mention that to you at some

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:54:59]:

No. This is actually very funny. So, yeah, Mark still calls me Wendy. And I I find that is, like, it's a big honor. Right? Like, I and I love doing it, so that's that's been great. Kryptonite, I've got a lot more kryptonite probably than anything else. My insecurity is probably my number one. I'm a people pleaser that ties into it.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:55:16]:

Right? That was one of the things that Bridgewater was really good at helping me see. And I'm also a big believer of any overused strength is a is a weakness. Right? So the same thing. So my people Pleasing tendencies, a little bit of my Wendy. It's also what I think makes me a good client person. Right? I am determined to figure out whatever we can do to serve those clients. And the problem is I will over serve as my team sometimes, has found out as my kids have bought that. Right? So I will do too much to to please, which is a real challenge.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:55:45]:

And so, therefore, don't say no enough. Right? The same things you hear every other, in some cases, Folks that that struggle on on those pieces. And I've not done this before. Right? So let's also call that out. I've never had a successful business, and so I I don't know what I don't know. I don't know if that's kryptonite, but it's also an unknown risk.

Jeffrey Stern [00:56:04]:

Knowing what you know now, what are the things that you wish you knew When you were, you know, younger, maybe getting into this.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:56:12]:

Yeah. Well, I guess the one thing I would say I wish I knew then is that really is all gonna be okay. Like, I I there's a a level of resilience I definitely did not have. I think I believed when I was younger, I remember this vividly. The idea of being fired was such a, like, Black and white, you suck if you're fired. Like, clearly, anybody that got laid off or fired was just bad because they keep all the good people. That, Like, paradigm is just wrong, and I didn't realize it at the time. I think I would've Never told someone they should resign when they actually got fired.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:56:53]:

Right? Like, I think that's one of those things. Like, own your story. It's okay. And that's probably one of the pieces that I'd also say it was different. Other than that, enjoy the time you have, like, doing things you love and with people that make make a difference, was probably the the other piece.

Jeffrey Stern [00:57:09]:

Something you mentioned earlier, and I can try to pose it almost as the same question I just asked With a different framing coming from the world of finance into start ups, both worlds not generally lauded for their representation and distribution of women within them, which, you know, if anything, is a a charitable painting of the picture. With the perspective and knowledge you have now, How have you thought about and reckoned with and maybe even tried to reconcile this unrepresentative distribution of women In the fields that you have worked in.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:57:45]:

Well, I'll tell a fun story on the first time it kind of I I kinda knew that. So it was a bond trader. I wanna go back there. At the time, I think there was 8% upon traders for women, if I'm not mistaken. And when I went to the 2nd company I trade at, I mean, It was fascinating, some of the things that were stated. This was in the nineties. Right? So we were it was, we'll just share. I kept some quotes.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:58:08]:

There's some good ones. Like, my ponytail is referred to as the Monica Lewinsky handle.

Jeffrey Stern [00:58:13]:

Oh, wow.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:58:14]:

It was there was there was some good posts. I won't share all of them because it probably wouldn't be appropriate here. And if I look back on it and people saw it, they would be mortified. At the time, what I realized is that's how the everyone was treated on the desk. Right? Like, I was the only woman, so, like, they didn't they treated me exactly like they treated each other. I felt it was my job. They didn't know they were crossing lines. That's what I learned pretty early on.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:58:35]:

Like, they just kept saying those things, and they were just bought by a big company. And I realized, like, they're They're about to all just have a horrible situation happen. And so one of my reflections is I do believe sometimes we have to help people Understand what the line is, and they don't know. And so if you go in with the mindset in a positive way of, like, if somebody says something that Was inappropriate. Let's start with, did they even know? Now we can argue that they should have or shouldn't and, you know, what those cases may maybe. But if we're gonna change kind of representation, and I do believe diversity reduces risk in all levels, then part of it is we have to help people understand why they're creating because I think sometimes, literally, they don't even realize they did it, and this happens all the time. So their education's a big part of it and having people be open minded. So my reflection is going back on that time.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:59:22]:

Like, I did they they got to the point. Look. If they're gonna cross the line, you know you've crossed the line, that's your choice. But if you didn't even know you did it, that's a different scenario. I think that's one right piece is, like, helping people understand, like, what's the value and what it looks like, and There's some really good things out there on, you know, how how women are different, in terms of how they manage and how they approach things. So I do think there's a value in bringing that all to the table. I think the second thing that's somewhat related, and it's a different reflection on it, is, look, I can look back and say, yeah. Like, You know? It was kinda lonely at times, and there wasn't yeah.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [00:59:58]:

You had to approach it differently. And, look, I I probably been more strip clubs than most People I know because that's where business got done and I wasn't about to miss out. Right? Like, I don't have a problem with it. Like, fine. That probably isn't where you wanna be doing all your work. Right? So I think those are good changes. At the same time, the other upside is I was noticed. Good, bad, or otherwise, I stood out.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:00:18]:

Now if I screwed up, that was gonna be a real problem. But if I did well, it was gonna be noticed. Like, I didn't have to go out of my way to be noticed. I think there's a there can be an element of, like, lean in. I think the last thing in my reflection, and to me, this is probably the most important, is that I really do believe that we have to help each other. Right? So, you know, the People People Architects is an all female leadership team. Right? So, you know, my leadership team is all women. We have men that work They're 2, and they're great and everything, but our leadership team is all women.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:00:52]:

And I love that. Right? Like and I think part of what we wanna do is, you know, help each other out. We understand there's A different way of working, and that has been really meaningful to me that we've done that. I think we need to work on some other levels of diversity personally, but I think we're getting there. I think that's part of how we help each other. But I I also believe this. Look at you know, I don't think anybody wants to be brought into an organization that can't be successful Right? So we also need to help people become successful and support and mentor and apprentice and create the scenarios around them. So I I think we're gonna see my my thought is we are gonna see a difference, particularly in start ups with more women being willing to kinda lean in.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:01:30]:

Particularly, I think this is gonna be an up my guess is an upside from the COVID world where you're gonna find more people willing to jump out on their own and try nothing in the try something new, and the gig economy will will help a a number of women, you know, Lean into that. I'd love to help them do that. Finance is an interesting one. I also just think that's that that goes back so far on so many other levels, but There there are a lot of women that I've found to be, you know, extremely successful, and, some of my clients right now, like, I admire tremendously that are in finance, that are women and have have pat you know, made their own way and done it in their own terms, and I think that's the the piece that's that's pretty cool. Mhmm.

Jeffrey Stern [01:02:09]:

So I would love to read your books one day Okay. On everything, you know, you learn from the CFA about people.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:02:15]:

That one has not started yet. That's gonna take a little longer.

Jeffrey Stern [01:02:18]:

And the gift of being fired.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:02:19]:

The gift Being fired is being written.

Jeffrey Stern [01:02:21]:

Oh, amazing.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:02:22]:

So the gift of being fired is actually in process of being written. I think it's probably we have a few chapters drafted. It's been a wonderful exercise to talk to a number of other people that I had that have reached out to me throughout their career, and they they got the gift. I quote to them always is never squander your gift, and they didn't squander their gift. And so and even firing yourself, like so there's I think sometimes people taking The relief that, like, they need to fire themselves is sometimes hard, and, so I'm excited. That is actually that is happening. I didn't think it was ever gonna happen, And my leadership team was really great about creating guardrails to help make sure that did, so I'm very grateful for that.

Jeffrey Stern [01:03:02]:

Oh, very cool. I was gonna ask about the hypothetical spark notes, But I I think

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:03:06]:

No. Yeah. It's actually coming. Believe it or not.

Jeffrey Stern [01:03:09]:

Amazing. Well, in in the spirit of of helping people, I did wanna ask about What the importance and power of coaches explicitly and and mentors are.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:03:19]:

Yeah. That they're they're so look at this way. Like, every time we go watch The Cleveland Browns. Right? And we talk about Stefanski. Right? That that we always talk about the coach. You think about all sorts of sports. Right? We always talk about the coach.

Jeffrey Stern [01:03:33]:

There's always

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:03:33]:

a coach. Always a coach. Even for, like, Michael Jordan and LeBron James, coach. I don't know why we don't hold that same element in business, but we do. We should. Two parts about a coach. 1, you need somebody who particularly as a CEO. So one of the things that we found is Then there's a there's some really interesting research out there about it, but it's very lonely being a CEO.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:03:55]:

Right? There isn't anyone or or a head of a company. Right? There's just no one to go interact with and and that really understands you, and a coach is all about you. Right? And and not you for the sake of you, but you to be better. And and I think that's an important piece to to remember. It's not weakness. It's it's leaning into being better. And I think part of it is we have to get over the idea that a coach is bad. A coach is good.

Jeffrey Stern [01:04:17]:

Right.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:04:17]:

It's it's a sign of, like, getting better. So So there's that piece. I think the other part, in the importance of mentorship and apprenticeship is it's actually how adults learn. Right? So one of the things we know about adult learning principles is adults don't learn by reading. They learn by doing and experiencing and practicing. And a coach and and helping ensure you do it the right way. So there's a great thing in sports. Right? Perfect practice makes Perfect.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:04:38]:

Not just practice. So if you've never done something before, like, if I was a diver. So I was a I I dove in college. And I can tell you what. If I had gone off the 3 meter board and was like, I'm gonna do a double twisting 1 and a half, and no one was there to tell me how to do it, it would have gone terribly slightly. It did a few times, but my coach at least helped me. Right? And so if we are trying something new, it's no different than jumping off the 3 meter. Like, I need someone to tell me what to do or call me out of the dive or do something else.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:05:06]:

Like, use somebody, whether that's a forum and a Partner or a coach. Like, you need somebody that's either been there, done that, can help you maneuver, be a sounding board, But we wouldn't do it in another place, so I don't know why we think we can here. Right? But for some reason, we can, and a number of people do. And sometimes you get lucky. Right? That's great. But I'd rather be more predictable and have somebody that can, you know, lean on me and to say when I could do something the right way or the wrong way or or be that Person that tells me I'm absolutely nuts, and that's okay. I can still decide to go do it even if they think I'm nuts, but at least I own I know what I'm going into. Right? In a Risk adjusted scenario, like, that's what you need.

Jeffrey Stern [01:05:48]:

Right. And and you have had those kinds of of people in your life?

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:05:52]:

I have plenty of those. Yeah. No. I see I seek them out. Right? So I would share you know, obviously, Chris here at Impact Architects has been a big part of that. My leadership team, people architects is a big part of that. Right? I've got external folks that have been mentors and apprentice, people that have helped apprentice and support and Grow Me, like my dad, and and others that I've worked with, like, I would hold Peter Raskin with someone that was a huge impact on how I wanted to be a leader.

Jeffrey Stern [01:06:20]:

I had wanted to to ask about knowing that, you know, you had both these kind of awesome different backgrounds in in sports and in in finance In application to business, but I think you already covered those. So I don't Good.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:06:32]:

Alright. Good. I find I did something.

Jeffrey Stern [01:06:33]:

I don't I don't think we need to talk about it.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:06:35]:

Yeah.

Jeffrey Stern [01:06:36]:

When you think about the future Mhmm. From the perspective of 90 people architects, your family, you know, whatever else, your books, what are you most excited about?

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:06:45]:

Oh, there's so much to be excited about. I don't know the most. I'm really excited. Ninety's in such a great place to have such a big impact on so many small and mid sized businesses. And so I'm really, really thrilled about the opportunity at 90. I I'm seeing people architects now is a like, we're we're past some of the scariest gauges, I'd say. Like, they're always gonna be scary. But it there's so many parts of that that are running so fluidly.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:07:12]:

I'm really excited about where that's continuing to grow and less the impact I have there, but the team there and and what they're doing in building, this is definitely one where I'm, you know, trying to not muck it up, and and they're running, and they're doing great stuff. I would say with my kids, like, we are a fun little centered unit, and I love it. They're just turning into their own amazing people. And so I'm excited to be part of hopefully shaping that appropriately from the sidelines a little bit, maybe not being on the field quite as much. And and so that's that's all good. And and having it you know, I'd love to be in a place where I feel like it all comes together, and, you can kind of make choices and back and forths and Continued to have impact for multiple people, and I hope I get better at, you know, giving myself some grace. That's probably the one thing I probably need to do a little better

Jeffrey Stern [01:08:03]:

Mhmm. Oh, that's awesome. I think we've we've covered a lot of ground here. Do you feel that there is anything unsaid that you would like to say That is important in reflection of any of the work you've done, your your journey.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:08:16]:

No one does it alone. I mean, that's the one message I hope everybody takes away. Right? No one is perfect. Everyone has issues. You can get upset about them or you can try and do something about it. And part of doing something about it is get help, Get support, find your village, and then be okay with it.

Jeffrey Stern [01:08:34]:

Awesome. Well, I will then ask our traditional closing question.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:08:39]:

Excited for this question. I've been thinking a long time about it, and I listened to almost all of yours. So I think I have some unique ones. Alright.

Jeffrey Stern [01:08:45]:

What are your hidden gems in Cleveland?

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:08:47]:

Gems in Cleveland. So I know I was supposed to have 1, but I have 3.

Jeffrey Stern [01:08:51]:

Amazing.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:08:52]:

Because I don't know if these were all said before. Now it's possible I missed an episode. So my 1st gem was the Cleveland Playhouse. So we all talk about Cleveland, like, the theater scene, and we talk about Playhouse Square. Yeah. But the unique part about Playhouse is it's actually an independent theater here in Cleveland. Really cool productions come there. It's awesome.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:09:10]:

They're smaller theaters. Like, The productions I've seen there have been outstanding. And so I think that is often not remembered as, like, a really interesting hidden gem in Cleveland, so that's my plug for the Cleveland Playhouse. My 2 others are somewhat related, but not really. The second 1 is the Westside Market. So I didn't hear anyone tell me about the Westside Market

Jeffrey Stern [01:09:29]:

Which is crazy.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:09:29]:

Which is nuts because it's the Westside Market. And so every time I'd bring someone here from that was coming to move to Cleveland for any place, I always brought them to the Westside Market. It is such a cool, open Area ethnic diversity and stands. Like, I love that environment. Like, I would just when I lived downtown before it was cool to live downtown, like, I'd go every week, and I had my favorite stands, and they knew what I ordered, and, like, it's just it's awesome. I love it. And my last one, which I don't, again, think anyone else has brought up, which is home games for the Browns in the municipal parking lot.

Jeffrey Stern [01:10:08]:

Oh, yeah.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:10:08]:

It is the last neighborhood. Like, When you go to other cities and they talk about tailgating, it's not like the Browns tailgates. Like, My brother used to live in New York, and they went to a tailgate before like, 3 hours before our Giants game, and no one was there. Right? Like, People are lined up at 5 AM to get in. If you see a a orange furry dog van, that's ours. And it is When we talk about all the terrible things that are going on in in, like, divert, like, the the I'm trying to think of the right word, but we don't feel like connected as a as a country. But you come down to the municipal parking lot on a Sunday at 7 AM and everybody is friends, unless you're wearing the other team's jersey, in which case not so much. But It is so cool to just feel, like, everyone connected to a thing.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:10:58]:

So I'm not I you can go to the game or not, but I would tell you there's a wonderful feeling of Cleveland on home games. And if you've never gone to the Muni parking lot, give me a call. I will invite you to the tailgate. Is one of my favorites.

Jeffrey Stern [01:11:12]:

Quite an experience and energy.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:11:14]:

Yes.

Jeffrey Stern [01:11:14]:

Yes. Well, awesome. Hey, guys. Wanna thank you for Going on. And

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:11:19]:

Yes. Thank you. This

Jeffrey Stern [01:11:20]:

is wonderful. If people had anything they wanted to follow-up with you about.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:11:24]:

Yeah. They can get ahold of me either at meg at people architects.ioormeg@90.io. Either one works, and would be more than happy to talk to anybody. I really appreciate you having me.

Jeffrey Stern [01:11:36]:

Amazing. Thank you.

Meg Mayhugh (People Architects) [01:11:37]:

Thanks so much.

Jeffrey Stern [01:11:40]:

That's all for this week. Thank you for listening. We'd love to hear your Thoughts on today's show. So if you have any feedback, please send over an email to jeffrey at lay of the land dot fm or find us on Twitter at @podlayoftheland or at @sternjefe, j e f e. If you or someone you know would make a good guest for our show, please reach out as well and let us know. And if you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or on your preferred podcast player. Your support goes a long way to help us Spread the word and continue to bring the Cleveland founders and builders we love having on the show. We'll be back here next week at the same time to map more of The land.