#170: Matt Buder Shapiro Round II — Investing in Cleveland, Storytelling, and Reflections on Vytalize Health's MedPilot Acquisition

-- AI-Generated Transcript --

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:00:00]:
I think it's the impact that storytelling can make on people. I think that whether it's health care, whether it's politics, it doesn't matter. It's to me, storytelling is the underlying thread that is I mean, it's it's yeah. Since the beginning of humankind, it's, you know, how we pass through information. It's how we pass stories. It's everything. And I hope that we can learn stuff and pass it down to future generations over time that will resonate, obviously, evolve. I don't believe in stagnation.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:00:35]:
I think, honestly, one of the fun things about storytelling is that it can evolve, it can change, and part of it is just making stories exciting. You know, as a marketer, obviously, I don't wanna say fabricating, but embellishing. You know? Putting a positive spin on things is important too. And I think that if you do that well, you can create a sense of community, excitement, and energy that you can accomplish anything.

Jeffrey Stern [00:01:07]:
Let's discover what people are building in the Greater Cleveland community. We are telling the stories of Northeast Ohio's entrepreneurs, builders, and those supporting them. Welcome to the lay of the land podcast where we are exploring what people are building in Cleveland and throughout Northeast Ohio. I am your host, Jeffrey Stern. And today, I had the true pleasure of speaking with Matt Guter Shapiro. I first spoke to Matt on this podcast about 3 years ago. At the time, as a co founder and chief marketing officer of Med Pilot, he was navigating an acquisition to Vitalize Health after having built the company to help service over 1,000,000 patients. I had said at the time that Matt's journey is a big win for Cleveland startups and the ecosystem writ large, and today's conversation underlines that point.

Jeffrey Stern [00:01:57]:
3 years on and proudly part of Vitalize Health, Matt serves as Vitalize's chief marketing officer, which has now raised over $150,000,000 in funding to fuel their growth as one of the top 10 fastest growing health care companies in the country and one of the top 100 fastest growing companies overall. In pursuit of their mission to accelerate the transition to value based care for patients by taking care of the doctors who take care of us. From this new vantage point, Matt and I talk about how he had navigated that acquisition, the lessons learned along the way, the power of storytelling, collaborating with other local founders, like Mac Anderson from Cleveland Kitchen and Andre Sisco, manager of MGK andXX Brands, to invest in over 30 other founders over the last few years, working on mayor Justin Bibb's campaign, his perspective on Cleveland, and a whole lot more. If you would like to go deeper on the specifics of Metpilot and Matt's background, I'd encourage you to listen to him break it all down on lay of the lands 14th episode. You will find a link in the show notes. Now please enjoy this great conversation with Matt Buder Shapiro after a brief message from our sponsor. Lay of the Land is brought to you by John Carroll University's Boulder College of Business, widely recognized as one of the top business schools in the region. As we've heard time and time again from entrepreneurs here on Lay of the Land, many of whom are proud alumni of John Carroll University, in this ever changing world of business requires a dynamic and innovative mindset, deep understanding of emerging technologies and systems, strong ethics, leadership prowess, acute business acumen, all qualities nurtured through the Bohler College of Business.

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:38]:
With 4 different MBA programs of study spanning professional, online, hybrid, and 1 year flexible, the Bohler College of Business provides flexible timelines the most effective the most effective options for you, including the ability to participate in an elective international study tour providing unparalleled opportunities to expand your global business knowledge by networking with local companies overseas and experiencing a new culture. The career impact of a bowler MBA is formative and will help prepare you for this future of business and get more out of your career. To learn more about John Carroll University's bowler MBA programs, please go to business.jcu.edu. The Buller College of Business is fully accredited by AACSB International, the highest accreditation a college of business can have. Alright. Here we go. Round 2.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:04:39]:
Let's do it.

Jeffrey Stern [00:04:41]:
So, you know, it's it's one of the the fun things about the podcast that I had kind of theorized at the onset was if I kept doing it long enough, there would come a point in time where at that eventual point, it would make sense to have people back on to share more about what they were doing, new entrepreneurial things that they've that they've done, and, new chapters in their lives that have kind of unfolded. And so it is really quite exciting to to have you back on the podcast, Matt.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:05:12]:
Good. I I'm so excited to be back. I'm very, very relieved to have come a long way since the last time we spoke, in this in this crazy journey of entrepreneurship.

Jeffrey Stern [00:05:25]:
Yeah. Well, so I'm I'm not as well versed in practice in in in the subsequent interview. And so we'll we'll play this a bit by ear here. But I I think as a starting point, it would be fun to just hear from your perspective what has happened, you know, in the time since. And we can kinda round out the the final chapters of of med pilot and some of the the work you were doing there, and we'll we'll take it in stride.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:05:50]:
Absolutely. So for anyone who who didn't catch the first episode, I had the privilege of being a cofounder of a local Cleveland company called MedPilot, which is a patient engagement CRM, customer relationship management company, focused on really more of the back office side of health care. Really, really excited. We scaled to 40 employees in large part due to Cleveland. Incredible resources from Cleveland investors, Cleveland teammates and their employees, customers, and a really, really supportive media ecosystem looking to change that narrative about how you can succeed in Cleveland. And we scaled it up to a 1000000 patients and managed about 3,600,000,000 in medical receivables and, backed by some amazing investors from the coasts, like Cedars Sinai and Hudson River Capital and some hedge fund people and and then some really awesome local Cleveland investors, like North Coast Ventures and and John Penney. And, you know, the last time we spoke, we were on the goal line, so to speak, of an acquisition to a company based on New Jersey. It it was it was a scary time.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:07:01]:
And, even listening to my my first interview, I I could sense, you know, the the excitement, but also the the fear of, you know, being a first time entrepreneur, like, what that means to take that next leap, of getting acquired. And, I'm very, very excited to say that now 3 years later, I could say that we we made a really, really good decision by partnering with Vitalize. It's been a truly remarkable 3 years, and I'm grateful for the partnership at Vitalize, for the support of the Cleveland community. You know, we've had local investors like North Coast Ventures come in, subsequent rounds of investment over these past, 3 years, which has been really, really great to see and very, very, very grateful for everything that's transpired. And it's, you know, still getting started. You know? Just just still early innings for sure.

Jeffrey Stern [00:07:50]:
Still getting started. Yeah. Well, I'll say it's been very fun to to watch this journey unfold for you from from the sidelines. You know, I'll I'll I'll toot your own horn a bit. You know, Vitalize Health, being one of the fastest growing companies in the country, for sure in the health care space. Oh, you know, 100 of 1,000,000 raised subsequently. Quite a quite a trajectory and and home for for Medpilot.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:08:13]:
It's crazy. When we came in to Vitalize, I think combined, we had about maybe 60 or 70 employees. And sitting here today, we have well over 300. We've raised about $200,000,000 since acquisition. And according to Deloitte, we are the 26th fastest growing private company in the country. According to revenue, we've grown about 7,000%. So it's it has been a whirlwind for sure. And, like like everything, whether you're starting a company day 1 or, you know, now we're like a series c company, there's challenges.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:08:46]:
There there's it's still a roller coaster, and, I'm just grateful that this time around, we have incredible support from investors and teammates. And the cofounders of Vitalize are are truly world class. So I'm learning a lot every single day. I'm I'm now the chief marketing officer, which has been an exciting kind of transition from cofounder where you spend a lot of your time as a cofounder just trying to keep the lights on and not getting to be more in the marketing lane.

Jeffrey Stern [00:09:11]:
Well, so if if you had entered into this destination with a, call it, an excited apprehension, you know, before the the acquisition had closed, On the the flip side of it from this position of, you know, leading marketing of the organization, how has it been? How's the transition? What is it like to relinquish, you know, control of your baby in a little, you know, bit of of of of way? And, what what's the experience been like?

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:09:37]:
I think when you do it originally, there's a little bit of anxiety just because, like everything, you don't know how it's gonna turn out. And I can tell you, transparently, there were a lot of people that were excited about this, both on our side as, you know, our employees and our my my cofounders, but also my investors too. And I can also say, transparently, there were some people that were, you know, a little hesitant about this and because it's a big deal. And, you know, we were in a position as a company where it's not like we were going bankrupt the next day. So, you know, we had to make a right play. This wasn't a fire sale. So for us, you know, we we wanted to really look at all options. And it was a unique scenario at the time because we were in the middle of the pandemic.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:10:20]:
So for us as a company, we started working with Vitalize actually as a client and, you know, improving our services to not just work in the back office setting, but also with patient engagement in the more clinical realm. And it was a really, really exciting experience that obviously turned into, you know, going from dating to to getting married. And I can say that now, you know, you know, 3 years later with full hindsight bias, it was the best decision we could have made. So it's absolutely now a time where I can exhale and and kind of feel good. And, look, it's I think we did a lot of things right, but I think in startup world, it's important for people to understand the importance of luck, and not just luck, like you're playing the lottery, like luck, like the macro effects that impact all of us as entrepreneurs and investors that really matter. And it could be really, really great. It can give you an amazing amount of steam as a company. It can also create some serious headwinds that are are difficult as well.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:11:17]:
And I think, you know, it's one of the things that keeps me humble, and I think, hopefully, everyone should should remember that we can work really, really hard. You can surround yourself by the best people. You have a good idea. But there's a lot out of our control, and I'm grateful that in this particular scenario, the stuff out of our control really was was helpful to us. And this transition to value based care is so good for our country, and it's a big reason why we as Medpilot, which operated in a fee for service world, which is how most of health care works, you know, you pay for services, We believe that value based care is the future, and I'm grateful to be a part of a company that's that's riding that wave and and helping really increase that wave as well.

Jeffrey Stern [00:11:58]:
Yeah. No. It's it's it's very exciting. And, you know, on the a a downstream implication of it all, you know, one one of my underlying intuitions about how you actually add considerable momentum to the start up flywheel of a of an ecosystem, like Cleveland, for example, is, you know, a bit circular as as all loops are, but that successful outcomes, you know, however much luck is involved in that, do 2 things. And and one of of which is that they show that successful outcomes are even possible, which I think is, like, actually a big deal, you know, because it it paves this path and inspires others, I think, to just raise their level of ambition because they see it can be done. And if you're able to amplify the stories of those people who are succeeding enough and ingrain them into the culture, you know, that's partially why I love doing this podcast is because I I see people who are who are doing really cool things here. And so it, you know, it can be done. But the other thing that that I wanna ask you about, you know, we can talk about either of these things, but is that, you know, successful outcomes if done well, can be sufficiently wealth generative for those founders and early stage folks involved so that they can afford the risk capital to invest in in the next, you know, wave and and vintage of entrepreneurs within an ecosystem.

Jeffrey Stern [00:13:15]:
And I think what's so cool about your experience is that you've you've added credence to, I think, both of these things. So we, you know, we can kinda take either, but I know you've invested in in over 30 companies in the last few years, including some local folks that we've had on the podcast, that we will have on the podcast. So I I love to just hear your your reflections in the in the aftermath of of the outcome, but also, you know, it's its its implications broader within, an ecosystem?

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:13:44]:
I love both those questions a lot because for me, especially as a first time entrepreneur, I'm excited that the next time I I do a company, I I will not be able to say that anymore, which is exciting. I you know, I can now say I'm a serial entrepreneur.

Jeffrey Stern [00:13:58]:
That's right.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:13:59]:
Is you know, the the only way it worked for us was because I got so much help from so many people around me, and that help could have been tangible day to day advice and help, or it could have been, like, a chance encounter and, you know, having someone very successful or someone very wise, you know, spend 5 minutes with me. You know? And I anyone that knows me knows that I'm I'm very not, I have a lot of, strengths and weaknesses. And one of the things that falls into both those categories is I'm very persistent with my networking. If I wanna meet with you, I will probably find a way. And I think that I've leaned a lot on smart, successful people that have done it before, and that's what provided me with the courage to be able to do this knowing that I didn't have to have all the answers. I just needed to be able to fill those gaps with people that did. And that also gave me a lot of confidence that, look, it's possible. These are human beings.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:14:57]:
You know, I've met with people like, you know, Tom Lee, the founder of One Medical, is someone who I'm grateful to be able to call a friend and an adviser and someone I've worked with, actually, you know, through the political landscape as well as gotten a lot of advice in health care. And while he is brilliant and and has successfully founded multiple $1,000,000,000 companies, he's a normal person. You know? He makes mistakes. He has learned the hard way just like all of us have. You know? Like, we need to get rid of this aura that, like, entrepreneurs, even the most successful Elon Musk's. It goes up into the right. Like, all of us hit walls. All of us face lots of hurdles, and it's about how you handle those hurdles.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:15:38]:
And so for me, like, I've seen that firsthand. It's not about how good of a, you know, punch you could throw. It's about how many you can take and and keep on moving forward. And so to me, having a little bit of success, like, I wanna make sure that story is repeatedly told so that all the first time entrepreneurs like me, they don't get discouraged when things don't go perfectly because because it's literally not possible for it to go perfectly. So that's for me on the first side. On the second side, as a investor, I think when you comment into it as an operator first and entrepreneur first, you look at things very differently. You know, I know a lot of investors, when I showed, you know, showed up to their offices, my pro formas and my spreadsheets, they got really into the numbers, which was awesome. I think it was helpful to me to to hear their thought process.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:16:25]:
But Yeah.

Jeffrey Stern [00:16:25]:
I don't know any going with it. Yeah.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:16:29]:
I don't know a lot of start ups that have numbers that don't go up until the right. Like, I I mean, it's they're they all look great on paper, and the truth is, you know, they're projections. They and so I think the more important thing for me was, like, how do I look at these startups and and meet them where they are as entrepreneurs and as startups? And that that's provided me with a lot of, not just credibility and and, like, startups like to meet with people that are operators because they get that, but also it allowed me to be able to take chances in areas that were really early stage because I believed in the entrepreneur. I believed in the strategy, and I also believed they didn't know a lot of things, and they were gonna have to go figure it out. And were they the right people to be able to figure that out? And so I think it's the biggest issue in Cleveland right now is we don't have enough people that fill that void, and I'm excited to play a small role in in hopefully changing that.

Jeffrey Stern [00:17:23]:
Yeah. I'm excited you're you're playing that role as well. From the perspective of operator now investing in other entrepreneurs, what what what characteristics have you come to to value, you know, most highly in others that that, you know, you find compelling from the other side of it? You know, because maybe it's not the pro form a, you know, spreadsheet.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:17:46]:
I love that. I think the number one quality of an entrepreneur is hard to pick. But for me, personally, I think if I had to boil it down to one thing, it's just pure tenacity. I think you obviously have to be smart. You obviously have to think about things differently. Like, I think those are table stakes, but tenacity, to me, is the one that I try to really suss out. And that's I I figure that out based on, like, hearing about where they have failed. It's cool when things go right.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:18:17]:
I don't think it's that hard. When things are going right, everything's awesome. And I don't think that's what defines us as entrepreneurs. I think it's when things are not going right, how do you handle yourself? Because you have to be composed. You have to make sure your team stays composed. You have to make sure your investors stay composed. Like, how you handle those times and those challenges are it's really what I care about, because everyone will hit those. And so when I'm meeting an entrepreneur, hearing about how they face challenges, making sure they don't lose their head, making, you know, making sure they, if anything, find excitement.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:18:49]:
I mean, personally, I'm a little bit of an adrenaline junkie. Like, I I think I do better in those scenarios because it's it's exciting. You know? It's the same way that you know, sitting on this podcast with you, I mean, when I was in college, my biggest fear was public speaking, and I hated it more than anything. I would tremble, and I'd have to talk in public. And when I flipped the switch, it was when I realized that that fear was, like, an adrenaline to me. And I I learned to thrive on it, and I enjoyed it. It didn't go away. I'm still scared, you know, get you know, being, yeah, public speaking.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:19:24]:
But for me, it's the same thing as an entrepreneur. Like, you have to enjoy and take that fear and that anxiety, and and that has to be adrenaline to you. You have to thrive in those scenarios, and I love it.

Jeffrey Stern [00:19:36]:
Yeah. Well, I I love that idea generally of of the the switch having been flipped. And I don't know. When you look back on the journey from Medpilot's inception to to acquisition and your subsequent ventures, which we'll we'll talk about in a moment, but how your perspective on entrepreneurship, leadership, all these things we've talked about already has changed. What what has been the most significant things that you've changed your mind about? What what what switches have been flipped?

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:20:07]:
I love that question. Because it's it's one that I haven't thought a lot about because you you live kind of in the day to day, and you don't get enough chance to really reflect, which is what what's awesome about this experience of just getting to talk to you again. I think that I am more certain than I was at the beginning that it takes a village. And I think I knew that, and I kind of understood that at the beginning, but not the extent to be transparent. And that village is wide, like, really, really wide. For me, looking back, everything had to click for it to work. I needed the right cofounders, which I'm grateful for my cofounders. I needed the right team.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:20:48]:
I'm grateful for that. But I also just things like my family being there for me. Like, I Yeah. I think I didn't appreciate the psychological side and the impact that being an entrepreneur has on you. It's really, really training. And so I think I understood it takes a village from, like, a skill set perspective, and everyone talks about that. Like, oh, if you're a marketer, team up with a good developer. But, like, that's part of it.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:21:12]:
Sure. But you need a village of people that can emotionally support you during this unbelievably challenging time that I don't think I fully appreciated how much of a toll that could take on me and all of us as entrepreneurs. It's it's a really isolating experience when you're going through not just the day in, day out marathon of the stress, but also having to keep that positive outlook to everyone around you to make sure that nobody panics, you know, whether it's your clients, your investors, or your team. Like, you have to really stay positive. And that that kind of delta of how you're feeling internally and how you have to express it externally causes a big toll on, I think, all of us. And I think I'm grateful for my family. I'm grateful for my wife and my friends. And I think going into this the next time around, like, making sure all of us have that support system around us, not just, again, on the work side, but also the emotion side is is important.

Jeffrey Stern [00:22:10]:
Yeah. How do you cultivate the village?

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:22:14]:
I think I think it's trial by trial and error. I think you're gonna have your guesses, you know, day 1 of, like, who who's gonna be there for you It was helpful, but I think that you don't really know till you know. And for me, at least, when things are hitting the fan and, by the way, I'm so impressed that I didn't have an expletive there because I I I I I think, in general, when when, you know, expletive hits the fan, it's a panic mode, and you will quickly figure out who can really be there for you and who can help. And I don't think you really know that until you get there. Yeah.

Jeffrey Stern [00:22:53]:
You're right. So things are tested in adversity. That's that's how it is.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:22:58]:
Mhmm.

Jeffrey Stern [00:22:59]:
I wanna ask about and we can use this as a as a seg to, you know, talk about some of the the work that that you focused on since. But what is motivating you now? You know, like, in some ways, you've had success by by some measure of the denotation of success. But what how is your thinking on what success even means? Has that changed? What is motivating you now?

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:23:23]:
For me, the most motivational thing that I got from that experience of starting a company and scaling and selling it is I feel like I hit most, like, roadblocks you could hit starting a company. Like, it it seemed at the time, like, everything went wrong at some point and we had to figure it out. And I thankfully also feel like, well, a lot of it was out of our control. A lot of it was in our control in hindsight, obviously. And I'm very motivated to do it again in the future, knowing that all of that really, like, is the best learning I'll ever get in life. And I can't wait to use that to my advantage. I am so excited to try it again in the future. I think, like, not just the learning I had at at Medpilot, but seeing Vitalize scale the way it has into one of the fastest growing companies in the country, and, you know, being in the chief marketing officer position versus the cofounder position, seeing how Farris, Gauthi, and Amir Al Nahar, the cofounders, handle their adversity and seeing what they go through and how they they do things very differently than me.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:24:35]:
I mean, Ferris is a trained civil engineer. Amir is a doctor. You know, very different backgrounds than me. So I'm getting to watch now firsthand how people who have such different perspectives than me do it. So I'm very motivated after now taking a company to exit and then taking you know, Vitalize when we got acquired was a series a company. They're now, you know, series c. I am so ecstatic to to take those learning and do it again in the future. So Yeah.

Jeffrey Stern [00:25:04]:
Well, what

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:25:04]:
are what

Jeffrey Stern [00:25:04]:
are you, noodling on? What are some of the ideas? I know and, you know, it's somewhat of a leading question because I I know you've kind of worked on a whole myriad of of things in the meanwhile, anyway, but what are you drawn towards at the moment?

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:25:18]:
I don't know the exact answer, to be honest, because I I feel like I'm still early at Vitalize. I really do. It's 3 years in, and I can I can honestly tell you, because I I've told this to Farris, our cofounder, I never thought I would wanna explore more opportunities in Vitalize after 3 years? In my mind, I thought I'd do, you know, the acquisition. I'd help integrate, I'd wanna start another company. And I'm still more excited than I've ever been about Vitalize and the opportunity to grow the company and to grow as a as an entrepreneur myself, an operator now. And so, I'm very, very, into it with Vitalize. So I think that I'll most likely stay involved in the health care space. I think that one of the benefits of having MedPilot and VITALYze experience is seeing how much opportunity there is in health care.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:26:12]:
And I think that Vitalize is playing a big role, but we've got a long way to go in a lot of areas. So I think there's one thing that I can almost guarantee. It'll be more stuff in health care, for sure, more stuff in the political realm, for sure. So I think Yeah. I wanna I wanna yeah. We can

Jeffrey Stern [00:26:28]:
pull on the the political thread for for a bit here. You know, last last we spoke about Bibb's campaign, you know, a couple of things have changed since then. Obviously, our our friend Justin is now mayor Bibb, so that that's that's one to know.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:26:43]:
Transition. Exciting transition.

Jeffrey Stern [00:26:45]:
Yeah. But I know you've played a meaningful role at that time and since in the whole progression of of BBS' campaign. I'd love to hear just your take on on having been involved in that, your reflections on how it's all transpired over the last few years, and, you know, kind of the challenges and opportunities, if you will, for for BIV going forward and and how, how you think about it.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:27:10]:
It's been truly just mind boggling to watch the incredible acceleration of what he built in the campaign into being the mayor. I will clarify, I played a very, very, very small role, but I'm extremely excited to have been able to play any role in his amazing success. I think watching the energy that he displayed during that campaign and then transforming that into so much momentum as our mayor has just been wild to to watch, for lack of a better word, and Cleveland really needs it. I mean, that's exactly what we needed and what we need today and what we're gonna need in the future. So, you know, I love his approach, and I've learned a lot from it of, really you know, it's not about trying to swing for the fences. He is just consistently building and building on wins. And those incremental wins, even the small ones, they really compound in a way that already we're seeing a couple years into his campaign campaign, you know, his term too. It's already making massive impacts.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:28:18]:
And I think that improvement and the way he builds momentum has just been awe inspiring to watch. And so and, like, I also just watching how he represents Cleveland on the national stage has been incredible. I mean, we had a a former mayor who kept a very low profile, and, you know, mayor Bibb comes in. And it's not just his incredible performance in the celebrity all star game that was fun to watch. You know, he's the chair of the National Bipartisan Coalition for, you know, climate mayors, and he's the vice president of the Democratic Mayor Association. I mean, these are huge national positions putting Cleveland on the map, getting us the resources we need. And it's just that mindset shift that this is the place we wanna be. He's created that excitement, and I think all of us are just we're excited to be drinking the Kool Aid and and trying to help any way we can.

Jeffrey Stern [00:29:13]:
Yeah. Well, as a as an advocate for for Cleveland myself, not from Cleveland, You know, I appreciate a mayor who at least loves the city. You know?

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:29:23]:
It it is hard to find someone who loves the city more than mayor Bibb, and I'm grateful for it. And, look, I it's one of those things where all of us want to make a difference in this city, and he's doing a good job of showing it's possible. I think a lot of people in Cleveland wanted to see our city succeed, but were kind of stuck in this stalemate of, like, I don't know what to do. Like, there's so many issues. Like, you can get stuck in that rut. And mayor Babb has shown us that it starts with energy and getting out there and doing things, and good things happen when you do things. And he is he's making a lot of momentum happen and creating a lot of excitement, and that's how it starts.

Jeffrey Stern [00:30:06]:
So so let's layer on your your own perspective on, you know, kind of entrepreneurship in Cleveland and and the state of how has your thinking on all of that evolved from a position of being an operator, building a company, taking it through the life cycle, but also, you know, again, getting to kind of, I'll call it, add momentum to the flywheel of the whole ecosystem, working with folks like, you know, Mac, Anderson and and, you know, just other other entrepreneurs in the proximity.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:30:39]:
Now it's fun because I felt like for a while, I was just kind of taking and taking. And and and by taking and taking, not just always, you know, fundraising and and soliciting help, but, taking people's time. You know, asking everyone around me advice and help. And and now it's fun to finally be able to give too as well and create that flywheel. It feels good. It's also important. And it's not just, like, purely because, you know, I'm just trying to be a nice guy. And, also, I know it will help me if I can give to the the city and give to the community.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:31:12]:
It will come back and help me in the future. And I think being patient on that flywheel is important because helping someone because you think the next day they should help you is is not the right way to create a good community. So I think we being patient, being long term focused. And for me, a lot of that has turned into working with other like minded entrepreneurs to advise, consult, invest in the entrepreneurs around us. And, Mac, you know, Anderson of Cleveland Kitchen is a perfect example. I, you know, had the pleasure of of growing up with Mac when we were little kids. Mac, as anyone that knows, was never little, but, you know, he he wasn't always 6 foot 9. I think he was probably, like, 6 feet tall in 5th grade.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:31:57]:
But when we were smaller, we always were very like minded entrepreneurs. We we wanted to get out there and and build something. And now getting to work with him with lots of local start ups, and we've invested in numerous companies together. And we brought in, you know, Andre Cisco, his Machine Gun Kelly's business partner, and, you know, helped build a lot of the ecosystem around MGK. And I think that the 3 of us, along with my cofounder of Medpilot, Jake, have just taken a huge interest in meeting as many entrepreneurs as possible, which I hopefully will get to meet more after this podcast, and learning about new businesses, helping where we can, investing where we can, and learning that, you know, we're all figuring it out. So I I'm sure we're gonna make a lot of mistakes. And, like, when I was in the giving or in in taking mode of asking everyone I know for advice, it was still on me to synthesize it, take the good stuff, not take the stuff that didn't apply to me. And I hope that as we're now trying to give more advice and, you know, capital and everything, I don't know that much more than most people.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:33:02]:
So I think it's, you know, take take what I can say. If it helps, great. If it it can't, you know, store it or or or get rid of it, but, you know, excited to be more involved.

Jeffrey Stern [00:33:14]:
Lay of the Land is brought to you by Impact Architects and by 90. As we share the stories of entrepreneurs building incredible organizations in Cleveland and throughout Northeast Ohio, Impact Architects has helped 100 of those leaders, many of whom we have heard from as guests on this very podcast, realize their own visions and build these great organizations. I believe in Impact Architects and the people behind it so much that I have actually joined them personally in their mission to help leaders gain focus, align together, and thrive by doing what they love. If you 2 are trying to build great, Impact Architects is offering to sit down with you for a free consultation or provide a free trial through 90, the software platform that helps teams build great companies. If you're interested in learning more about partnering with Impact Architects or by leveraging 90 to power your own business, please go to ia.layoftheland.fm. The link will also be in our show notes. How optimistic or pessimistic are you about all of it?

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:34:20]:
I think that the last 3 years has definitely crystallized the optimism I have for Cleveland. I think that the biggest facet of the kind of startup ecosystem that we're missing is early stage capital. And I don't think that that changes today or tomorrow, but I think it's very obvious that's the piece that's missing. And so I'm hoping that if we keep on highlighting successes, they don't need to be Facebook, you know, successes. They just need to be singles, doubles, triples. More people will get off of, you know, their their chairs, and they'll start getting involved. And it's gonna take a couple hundred of me and Mac and Dre, but, like, it's gonna start as people realize there's so much more than financial returns that you get from getting involved in early stage startups. And it can really provide so much community building that I hope I can encourage other people to join me.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:35:20]:
And it's definitely yeah. It I think in 5 years, Cleveland will be in a much, much different place. And then, I think, as entrepreneurs, we we hope it's tomorrow, but I think, you know, you have to look a little bit longer term when you're talking about the transformations we have. But I feel optimistic knowing at least where the the hole is that we we all have to kind of work on filling.

Jeffrey Stern [00:35:41]:
Yeah. Well, I I share share your optimism.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:35:44]:
Let's go. Well, you're you're a big you're a big piece in this too. And I'm one of the reasons I've always loved talking with you is as an entrepreneur, as an investor, it takes a lot of us for this to work. And so I'm grateful that we have people like you and and in our community going for it, because there's there's easier ways to make money, than than taking the path we're talking about. I don't know if there's more satisfying ways, but but there's probably easier ways.

Jeffrey Stern [00:36:11]:
There are certainly easier ways. But thank you. You know, I I appreciate getting to to play my small part as well, which I feel like I've honed it more in on as as a a masquerading Clevelander. You know, the thing that I've picked up on is that true Clevelanders, there's the, you know, the Midwestern kindness and humility and warmth, which is is so lovely and and something that I appreciate very much about people here. But the flip side of it is that, you know, to the flip side of humility, there isn't a lot of people amplifying the success. And I'm happy to do that because I see it I see it, and it's inspiring. And I think it's an important part of, you know, how you get more people to wanna do this kind of stuff.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:36:56]:
Yep. And it's it's the amplification, but the the truthful amplic amplification. It's letting people know that success exists, giving them the realistic expectations, what it takes to get there, or what it is. Exactly. And I I think the combination of those things, hopefully, can set the right expectations and excite the right people, and and honestly weed out the people that it's not the right fit for, because it's, again, it's not the right fit for everybody. That's for sure.

Jeffrey Stern [00:37:25]:
What what would you be doing if you weren't going to pursue health care or tech?

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:37:31]:
I would be full time trying to get more involved in politics. I think that when I was younger, I always kinda wanted to be a politician. I loved politics. My mom is a incredible advocate in Cleveland for women's rights and has done amazing things in the political space. And aside from giving me a lot of good wisdom and and being a great role model for me, she then fully kinda nudged me away from wanting to be a politician myself and told me I can make a big impact with my skills, not as the actual politician, but but in the political space. And so that's what kind of excited me when when Mayor Biv, you know, approached me about being a tech policy adviser, was I kind of was waiting around to see what politicians did I really aspire to wanna help. And now it's, you know, trying to help people like him, who I believe can make just a truly transformational impact on on our city and and all of us overall. So I I think politics for me is, you know, the the macro impact that you can have there is is exciting to me.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:38:40]:
And I'd like to make a little bit more money personally, before I, maybe in the future, go more full time into the political space, but, I I wanna help every day I can.

Jeffrey Stern [00:38:50]:
Yep. I I love that. I'll I'll ask kind of another higher level question, which is kind of reflecting on all of it, and it it ties back in, I think, to your your underlying motivations as well. But would you say that there is a a theme that that ties your work together? Like, if there's a craft that you're honing over time, what is the craft that transcends the companies and projects you're you're working on?

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:39:15]:
I think it's the impact that storytelling can make on people. I think that whether it's health care, whether it's politics, it doesn't matter. It's to me, storytelling is the underlying thread that is I mean, it's it's you know, since the beginning of humankind, it's, you know, how we pass through information. It's how we pass stories. It's everything. And I I hope that we can learn stuff and pass it down to future generations over time that will resonate, obviously, evolve. I don't believe in stagnation. I think, honestly, one of the fun things about storytelling is that it can evolve, it can change, and part of it is just making stories exciting.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:39:58]:
You know, as a marketer, obviously, I don't wanna say fabricating, but embellishing. You know? Putting putting positive spin on things is important too. And I I think that if you do that well, you can create a sense of community, excitement, and energy that you can accomplish anything, whether it's changing health care, changing politics, changing society. So I I really I wanna play a small role in that and and leveraging the the power of storytelling

Jeffrey Stern [00:40:26]:
in the world. It it it is so powerful, and it's so requisite to, I think, literally everything that you you can pursue with some intentionality in life. So that's, I I love that answer, actually.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:40:39]:
Thank you. You got me there. I wasn't I wasn't prepared for that. But, when I when I look back on it, it's everyone that I admire, they're that's that's the underlying. They is they're incredible storytellers.

Jeffrey Stern [00:40:52]:
Yeah. Well, what what, what's left unsaid here? I'm sure a lot of things, but, you know, in this interim time since since we last spoke, what would you wanna highlight or call out that that we haven't touched on yet?

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:41:03]:
I wanna double click on just the absolute desire I have to to do whatever I can do in a small part for Cleveland startups. You know, you mentioned I I've invested in a lot of companies. I'm very for that opportunity to have worked with them. I'm really grateful that I've I've been able to see a few of them grow massively. Actually, one of my first investments was a local company. They were a a music school company that was partnering with local groups, 1 in Cleveland, actually. And I was able to kind of, day 1, help them kind of as a founding marketing adviser and build out their plan. And they're now, you know, servicing 1300 plus, you know, music teachers across the country, and I'm grateful to have played a small role in that.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:41:47]:
I think that I wanna do a lot more of that. I wanna meet other entrepreneurs, and I wanna help. And so for me and my team with Mac Anderson of Cleveland Kitchen and Andre Sysco, Machine Gun Kelly's team, and Jake Myers, we wanna meet and work with other entrepreneurs. So please, please, please, I just wanna make sure everyone don't be shy. Reach out to me, and we'd love to talk more.

Jeffrey Stern [00:42:10]:
Yeah. Very exciting. Well, we'll spread the word to to everyone. Well, alright. I'm gonna I'm gonna hit you then again with our traditional closing question, which which you've already answered. So, you know, you're gonna have to do some deep thinking here on hidden gems for Cleveland. But if if I recall correctly, having, you know, referenced our our last conversation, you had called out, you know, the food scene, which obviously is is excellent. But with some time to reflect, you know, you've been thinking about this question for 3 years.

Jeffrey Stern [00:42:38]:
What, what would you say? What would you call out?

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:42:41]:
This was one I I that I didn't know about 3 years ago. So this is the new hidden gem for me, but I got to explore it during the pandemic, which, you know, I didn't have a bachelor party. I got married during the pandemic, and getting 20 people out of the country was not gonna happen. And so I ended up having a Cleveland kind of low key bachelor party with a few of my closest friends, and we took a boat out on the water. And I had in 33 years, I'd never actually, like, gone out into the water on a on someone's boat. And it was mind blowing. I mean, I literally felt like I was in, like, the Hamptons of the of the Midwest. It was so cool.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:43:22]:
I mean, we have a beach that people don't go to. We have Yeah. They can call the north

Jeffrey Stern [00:43:27]:
coast for for nothing.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:43:28]:
Exactly. And I I never explored that. It was incredible seeing that kind of boating community, and it was so fun. I mean, we have incredible fresh water, and it's a lot cleaner than jumping in the water outside of New York. I I know that much. And so that that to me was exciting and incredible, and I feel like people don't take advantage of that enough. At least I didn't. So I highly recommend it.

Jeffrey Stern [00:43:52]:
That's a that's a wonderful hidden gem. Well, Matt, I just want to thank you again for coming back on the show. This is so fun. Yeah.

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:44:02]:
And I, conversely, I I I wanna thank you because I truly believe if there's one of the main things that we need to fix as a as a city is changing that narrative about being able to have a successful career as a start up, as an investor, as an employee of start up. That whole community, it it takes the media changing that narrative and people like yourself spreading the word. So thank you so much for everything that you do. Oh, Cleveland needs Well,

Jeffrey Stern [00:44:29]:
thank you. As you said, you know, it it it actually takes a village, though. So Amen. We're we're working on it. Well, great. If if folks had anything they wanted to follow-up with you about, what would be the the best way?

Matt Buder Shapiro [00:44:42]:
Please shoot me a note. I think LinkedIn is probably the best because Yeah. I am. I have a very I have a very long email address because I have two last names. So Matt Buedershpear on LinkedIn. Shoot me a note. I'd love to connect, and I'm looking forward to it.

Jeffrey Stern [00:44:56]:
Awesome. That's all for this week. Thank you for listening. We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's show. So if you have any feedback, please send over an email to jeffrey@layoftheland.fm, or find us on Twitter at podlayoftheland or @sternjefe, j e f e. If you or someone you know would make a good guest for our show, please reach out as well and let us know. And if you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or on your preferred podcast player. Your support goes a long way to help us spread the word and continue to bring the Cleveland founders and builders we love having on the show.