#49: Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts)

-- AI-Generated Transcript --

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:00:00]: I can tell you our inspiration for Evergreen was 19 sixties jazz label records. We wanted to be that quirky, dynamic brand that brought you special talent, and we can nurture that special talent and grow That's the business plan right there. And the fact that we have 115 podcasts, 85 of which are independent podcasters. Trusting us enough to guard their show and to grow it is a very humbling experience, and a very serious responsibility.

Jeffrey Stern [00:00:38]: Let's discover the Cleveland entrepreneurial ecosystem. We are telling the stories of its entrepreneurs and those supporting them. Welcome to The Lay of Land podcast where we are exploring what people are building in Cleveland. I'm your host, Jeffrey with Michael D'Aloya, who is the CEO of Evergreen Podcasts, which is a media company based here in Cleveland that he has since transformed into a fast growing podcast network with millions of downloads around the globe. Prior to Evergreen Podcasts, Michael served as the executive for technology development, More colloquially as the tech czar for the city of Cleveland under mayor Jane Campbell's administration, where he was responsible for economic development for technology startups. Essentially, helping to attract new technology companies to Cleveland and supporting the technology companies that are already here. Before stepping into city hall, Michael was the co founder and CFO of BlueBridge Networks, a data storage company also based here in Cleveland. And on the side, Michael is a Cleveland history of, an author of Lost Cleveland, Lost Hotels of Cleveland, and Lost Apartment Stores of Cleveland, series where he traces the cherished places in Cleveland that time, progress, and fashion have swept aside.

Jeffrey Stern [00:02:03]: We cover a variety of topics in this conversation here spanning Michael's expansive experience, and I hope you all enjoy our conversation. So I was thinking The is going to be a pretty fun Meta exploration of podcasts, kind of a a podcast ception of an episode where we will not only get to for your personal background and an entrepreneurial journey, but the world Land business of podcasts via podcasts. So this is I've been looking forward to this one.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:02:38]: It's like we're breaking the 4th wall, Jeffrey. You know what I'm saying? Like From the kitchen. You know, we're talking about podcasts through a podcast. Crazy.

Jeffrey Stern [00:02:45]: Yeah. So let's let's do it. Just to set a little bit of context, now that now that we've broken the 4th wall, I'd love to Before we talk about Evergreen and The business that that you're building Land of explore your, your path to that endeavor. I know you've Had this title of Texar for the city of Cleveland. And I'd love to just kind of preface with some context on entrepreneurship in Cleveland and How it is you've came you came into that role Land and the kind of transformation you've seen in the Cleveland startup world over the last decade. What what has transpired?

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:03:22]: Yeah. Well, the transformation has been significant, and I'll I'll reach back to that point. The Stern czar role was The was a bizarre journey. I had been working for a number of investment banks and capital markets group before I became the tech czar. So No, I moved up to Cleveland to attend Case. Still not quite sure how I got into CASE, because I'm pretty sure I didn't apply. But somehow I got into the MBA school at CASE. I moved up here, And immediately after I graduated, I joined National City Venture Capital as an analyst reviewing stacks and stacks of deals.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:04:05]: And they mostly gave me the really bad ones to test me, what I thought of the deal Land the transaction and talk through it. And they were rough. They were like, You're completely wrong. This is why you're wrong. You gotta look at these things. And it was fantastic. And I reviewed everything from Ginger Farms to radio station consolidation Land everything in between. And soon thereafter, I got some a rotation through National Cities Investment Bank, The structured finance, which was essentially essentially doing highly leveraged transactions Land selling off that debt in the secondary market.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:04:42]: The I got recruited into Ernst and Young to help. I wasn't part of an internal M and A team going around the globe, buying other accountancies and consultancies. I was in my late 20s. It was fantastic being flown around the globe with an expense account. And The again, I was learning more and more about deal flow. And it was my time at Ernst and Young, I got a partner out of the Akron office. Like, hey, I got this very troubled company. Why don't you take a peek, if you don't Land? That could use an injection of young blood.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:05:16]: And The name of the company was Susan's Coffee and Tea. It was a coffee chain. And I ended up buying that company. It was a complete disaster. Geraldine, it's your 1st go. It was my 2nd MBA. Everything I didn't learn in MBA school, I learned on the job. I bought a dog with fleas, with mange, and it croaked on me.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:05:37]: And somehow I raised about $2,200,000 through mostly people I recently met through my journeys at Ernst and Young and National City. And I felt very obligated to pay that stuff back. So We had about 700,000 I returned immediately in cash. And then that 15, this is the crazy part. I paid most of that 15 back over in the next 10, 15 years of my life. And a lot of the people I still connect with, you know, when I'm looking at deals today, quite frankly. It was an unnecessary thing to do, but I felt morally obligated as my 1st deal to get everyone square, which we did. And so from that jumping point of Susan's Cleveland Tea, I ended up at SS and G Financial in The capital markets group.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:06:24]: And I was hired because this Stern thing is gonna be big, and we don't have anyone who talks Stern. Like, it has its own language. So I jumped on board. And I had about 45, 50 tech clients, mostly in startups. And So you're going from 99 to 2002, cradle to grave type Stern, raised over $100,000,000 for these companies. At the time, the state will have had a tax credit. So I maxed out like 40,000,000 in tax credits to the Stern, doing all sorts of just crazy deals. And then when they went bankrupt, we're doing like The time S elections to get the cash out, so they could get the losses back on, because everyone was, of course, a Delaware seat at the time.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:07:09]: It was during my time at Salt Seamus that I got invited to sit on a committee as Jane Campbell was running for mayor. She had been a county commissioner. She was running for mayor of Cleveland. And at the initial meeting, Chris Thompson, who was then the editor of Cranes Cleveland. And also we had a special tech site at the time called Crane Tech, which Chris started. Chris just set the agenda, man. He was like, Campbell needs a tech czar. She needs economic development for the technology trades.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:07:38]: We need to fill downtown with techno. Amy just went down. And I was sitting there in the back of my mind was like, Man, that's a job I would really love to have. That would be

Jeffrey Stern [00:07:48]: cool. Yeah, it would be.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:07:50]: And so we started working with the Campbell campaign, this this technology advisory group as to how improve city hall, but even better how to create an economic development framework to use the the the the terminology, to build something special for the city of Cleveland and and get us in the game and technology. In the interim period, as this campaign is going on, I left SS and G to start another tech company called BlueBridge Networks, which is still downtown on Euclid Land East 13th. We, you know, raised about 3 and a half $1,000,000 for that. Got some Cisco capital, which at that time was just a big deal for Cleveland to get Cisco to come in and throw some cash around. And we were launching The. And as we were buying data centers out of bankruptcy, so this is post that bomb era. Mhmm. So 2002, 2003, Jane Campbell Lay won the election.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:08:47]: I found myself on the front page of the plain dealer business section as The of 5 candidates for this job. None of the 5 candidates, of course, got the position. Went to a guy named Tim Moran, who was really kind of like out of left field. Like he had done a startup of a software startup in Puerto Rico. And as everyone knows, Puerto Rico is just the hotspot for software startups. And, but he got the gig Land he was just he was a really genuine, great guy who I think was a bit overwhelmed with the role. Nonetheless, we had launched Bluebridge Networks, we had invited Mary Campbell. She walked in and she was like, I remember you from this committee.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:09:34]: Tim had just left. Would you like to interview for this job? And I was like, well, obviously, I'm a cofounder here. I have a job. But if you give me the role, I will take it. But I'm not gonna interview. But if you want someone, I will be there for you and I will do it. And she kinda gave me the strange look like, who the hell are you? To tell me, you're gonna take this role. Sure enough, the next day, her director of economic development gave me a ring.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:10:00]: I interviewed, crazy story. I'm in the interview with a bunch of staff members in the economic development group, the chief development officer, the chief of staff, who was Chris Renee at the time, who's now running for county executive. She fell asleep during the interview, Jane Campbell. I'm hoping it wasn't because I was so born, but rather she was just so tired trying to fix the woes of Cleveland. And I got the role and, I took it. I just thought, well, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to really make your mark on Cleveland, Ohio. And I got the role. I leaped at it, because I just knew this was gonna be a game changer for me, and hopefully a game changer for the city of Cleveland.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:10:43]: And I just it It was one of the best roles I've ever had, quite frankly. I miss the rigor and the strain of working in politics terribly. And I'm glad I had that role. I did it for 4 years, 2 years with Campbell Land 2 years with Jackson in his 1st term. And long story short, I mean, we were able to move 35 tech companies into the city, about 1,000 new jobs. And one of the things I'm really proud of is it laid the groundwork for the live, work, play environment that really Cleveland was originally built for. I mean, you lived in the city, you worked in your neighborhood, right? And you played in your neighborhood. And downtown was that perfect microcosm of entertainment, right? Food, plays, movies, sports, had The infrastructure for employment.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:11:33]: And then you could Cleveland a great downtown. I love downtown Cleveland. I lived downtown Cleveland for many years before I moved to Ohio city. And then when My wife and I got pregnant, evidently have to leave Cleveland. So we moved out to Lakewood. I guess it's a rule that you gotta leave, but we miss it terribly. We do wanna get back. So it was just a monumental role for me.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:11:54]: The stress and the strain of doing something like that was especially at that time where downtown Cleveland rolled up at 4 o'clock, 5 o'clock in the evening. Desolate, not a lot going on. So I'm always proud of what we did and accomplished there. And I hope it set the stage for, you know, my 2nd Land 3rd act as an entrepreneur. It really was just to listen to work for the city of Cleveland and to bleed for the city. The city has given so much to me, and it was just the biggest honor of my life, to work for the city of Cleveland.

Jeffrey Stern [00:12:29]: Yeah, it does seem like maybe one of the coolest jobs there. There is very, Very funny.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:12:35]: It was. It was. I I hope, you know, if Biv wins the election. Yeah. He asked me many months ago to write up, playbook for technology economic development, which which I did. I sent it to him. And of course, he got he's never replied back. But at least He has the mindset and the temperament like we need to get back on track of having a point person for economic development in the technology trades.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:13:00]: It wouldn't be me. It needs to be someone younger who's got the pulse of what's happening in Cleveland. And really, it should be a regional role, right? I mean, you should be talking with people Akron, Lorraine, Elyria, Youngstown to to build a true ecosystem, which it could be. But I always advocate that for the region to succeed, you need Cleveland to be the point. And Cleveland has to be the strongest economic engine out there. I mean, Akron's not gonna pull out this region from any economic malaise, but Cleveland can. So that's what I would heavily suggest as as technology economic development going forward.

Jeffrey Stern [00:13:42]: Yeah. Working towards the act 2, if if you will, as you mentioned, what kind of inspired the personal transition back to the world of entrepreneurship coming out of that?

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:13:55]: That's a good question. Land Stern my 2 years with Jackson, they brought in a new economic development director. And He was like, I'm gonna give you 2 years to find a job. So essentially, my days were numbered at the city because of a personnel change. And I didn't take slight. And it probably took me a couple weeks, but I ended up jumping off to join Fit Technologies, which is one of the companies that I had recruited into the city. They were out in The. We moved them into downtown Cleveland.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:14:25]: They ended up taking 2 floors in the idea center building. The idea center building is one of my top projects as the tech czar at the city of Cleveland. Nonetheless, I kinda got yeah. I got pushed out of city hall for being too successful, essentially. And there was some pressure from other organizations to get me out. Because the economic development plate at the time was, well, we gotta spread it around. The state money is, you gotta make it even between Lake County and Coyote County. Land which is BS because Coyote County, it's one of the top 30 economies within the United States.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:15:02]: And so for me to say, oh, all right, I won't recruit this company from LA here. No, they they wanna come to Cleveland. So it's getting a lot of pressure from outside groups like, you're not playing the playbook. Now the city at the time had its own technology fund, which was very unique for a mid market city like Cleveland to The. It was called the Core Cities Tech Fund The. And I was using that as a recruitment tool to get companies in, and that was starting to wind down. So those 2 things were put into play. I would have stayed longer had I had, the invitation to just keep making things happen, but that wasn't the case.

Jeffrey Stern [00:15:47]: Let's, transition to Evergreen and this of podcast of podcasts. The meta moment. The meta moment. So let's start with a brief overview of What Evergreen Northeast is, how how would you describe the organization today?

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:16:06]: We are a network that's been built for the independent podcaster and help that independent podcaster grow. I mean, that's essentially what we build it for. We do have our own original programming, but we're really geared for Those who've got a successful Northeast, who are on their own. You've done this, Jeffrey. I mean, you you're recording, you're editing, you're hosting, you're distributing the Northeast, then you're doing the marketing, the social media. We take away all of that work for our podcasters. We just want them to do the show. Just get the show, we'll handle all the The.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:16:40]: Sales, marketing, social. So essentially, they're outsourcing a great deal of the operations of that show to us. And we're really acting as their sales and marketing agent. Now, Evergreen didn't start off as Evergreen. As you know, in startups, you pivot, you make changes.

Jeffrey Stern [00:17:00]: Yes, yes.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:17:00]: I inherited the business, which makes this a really wild tale. I was looking for, I told my wife about 6 years ago, I wanted to be a CEO again of a company. I was a chief revenue officer of a business. I was trying to buy into that business. And after a lot of negotiations, they decided not to accept my my investment, which was a little awkward moment. And I got a call from a friend of mine, a gentleman named Steve Kalia, who now works at AWS. And he was like, hey, man. I just interviewed for this job as CEO.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:17:37]: And I told him I'm not the guy. I told him I know the guy, and you're the guy. So you need to call these people today. They're waiting for you to call. And so I called the founder of the business. Her name was Joan Andrews. And Joan had started a podcast network called, front porch people. As a callback to that time in history where everyone gather around the radio.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:18:05]: Her belief was, well, everyone's gonna gather around the laptop or the computer and listen listen to podcasts. So more folksy homespun content. They had a previous CEO who just can never get the company to launch. And she was looking for someone to come in and take over. And I accepted the role, I thought it was great. I've always wanted to be in the media business, even though my background is primarily capital markets and technology. And so she had been financing this through her family office. So it's a really unique blend of it's not founder driven, it's family office driven, which truth be told, a lot of VCs just do not know how to handle.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:18:46]: There's a formula, as you know, out there in the world, as you do your of dollars to your series A to your mezzanine, series B, series C Land so forth. We haven't followed that script. It's been a little challenging for us, truth be told, to find a financial partner, because the money is primarily coming through a family office. And then she's detached herself pretty much from day to day operations. So She's hired a management team, now we're equity, we're shareholders. We've earned equity over a period of time. So it's this quirky mix of entrepreneurs who know how to take hold of a startup, but we're really working on behalf of a family office, which is a bit a bit unique.

Jeffrey Stern [00:19:28]: At at what point did the did the transition, transpire? And and how is kind of the vision, if you will, changed, since then?

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:19:37]: Yeah. Well, I took over January 15, 2017. And the the firm belief of Joan was like Front porch people is the thing. That's the route we wanna go. Now The 1st year, we had 4 shows we had a very poor, production cadence. The website I inherited was a disaster. The tile art was It was amateur, and we would all admit this now. I think that 1st year, we did 4 shows.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:20:08]: In the entire year, we did less than 18,000 downloads. Gotta give some context. We're doing over 18,000 downloads a day at this point for the entire network. We're we've grown. So About 18 months in, like, I knew right away front porch would probably not gonna work. But she was so beholden to that dream, as a lot of founders and entrepreneurs are. That it took a while for us to convince her like, Lay, it's not The isn't working, but we have a plan. We have an idea Land let's just test it out.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:20:41]: So 2nd year, we actually grew downloads to 100,000. We had like 15 shows. And then we that late that 2nd year. So 2018, November of 2018, we launched Evergreen. The 1st year of Evergreen was a 1000000 downloads for the year, which is pretty nominal relative to the entire industry. But for us, that was huge, getting over that seven figure mark was big, and it's just been a rocket ship ever since. We've grown in terms of shows and downloads, we're hitting internal thresholds. This year, we've been about 2 or 3 months Cleveland kinda hitting our thresholds.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:21:20]: The whole Apple situation, as you know, that happened in May when Apple released The new update, it knocked out a lot of your subscription base. And a lot of our bigger shows lost significant subscribers over that period of time. And it took us some time to get those back. But last year, we had 4,000,000 downloads. This year, we're on target for about 5.6, 5.8. Next year, I'm looking at almost, between 10 Land 12,000,000 downloads. I want to drive a 1000000 downloads a month through the network. And what the unintended consequence of opening up Evergreen as really the I can tell you our inspiration for Evergreen was 1960s jazz label records.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:22:04]: We wanted to be that quirky, dynamic brand that brought you special talent, and we can nurture that special talent and grow them. That's the business plan right there. Right. And the fact that we have 115 podcasts, 85 of which are independent podcasters, trusting us enough to guard their show Land to grow it is a very humbling experience Land a very serious responsibility. Right? Because you can't f up their show. You can't do it. It's not in the realm of possibility. Now, we're actually taking on full networks.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:22:46]: So ours longa, for example, industry pods, pink kangaroo, we're their backbone. I mean, they're sitting on all the infrastructure that we've built out. And are using our tools and trades and our sales and marketing experiences to grow their networks. We are about to announce The deal is signed, but and we've got a whole public campaign about The start. We've signed a pretty significant music podcast network out of LA. And essentially, they're outsourcing their 25 shows to us. This will launch in December. The is to to to to me, the lasting mark or the the present mark that we've built for ourselves is a trusted resource for independent podcasters and fledgling podcast networks.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:23:35]: And we've got the infrastructure to protect them, grow them, sell for them, market for them. It's just The whole experience has been, and this is not an understatement, otherworldly. I mean, I've never experienced anything like this in my life. Land, you know, I mean, the podcast industry is pretty chill. It's like we've called our competitors. Gimlet before they were bought, wondery who's recently got bought Land others. I'm like, dang, can you give us a half hour, hour? We'll fly up or we'll meet you at this conference. Yeah, man, whatever you need.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:24:11]: We'll do it for you. And it's just been That is cool because in the technology tragedy, Rarely do you talk to your competitor. You're friendly,

Jeffrey Stern [00:24:19]: I would imagine. Right, right.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:24:21]: But you're not giving them state secrets or like, How do you do this? No, well, let me do it ABC. Now they're not giving you the tactical stuff necessarily, but they're certainly giving you a point Northeast Land like this is the road to travel.

Jeffrey Stern [00:24:34]: Is that a consequence of the rising tide lifting all boats? When you think about the industry of podcasting, I don't actually know the numbers, but anecdotally, it feels like it's grown extraordinarily over the last few years Yeah. In terms of adoption Land and the number of podcasts and listeners and viewership and and all these things. Where where are we today from an industry standpoint?

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:24:58]: Yeah. I well, listen, you got about 2,100,000 podcasts that have been produced. Roughly 600,000, 700,000, which are consistently active in production. So you got a lot of titles out there that are ghost titles, right? So you got a tsunami of content on that side for sure. Now the industry will hit about a 1,000,000,001, 1,000,002 in ad revs this year. The fascinating thing is the m and a market far exceeds The actual revenue of the industry. You know, like people Large media companies are so pressured for content development. That they much rather buy these independent groups The do it on their own to get an immediate catalog.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:25:41]: And then they've got a sales network, The far exceeds mine. We're just a little group here in Cleveland, Ohio trying to make a nickel here or there. But nonetheless But I think you're right. I think it's Everyone's trying to figure it out like how to really generate significant revenue. To be quite frank, I thought initially, our biggest issue is gonna be content. And content has not been the issue. The issue has been how do we really connect in a resonating way on the sales side? We're generating revenue every month. My burn rate is still higher than our revenue.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:26:19]: And that was the case with Wondering Gimlet too. I'm going to them talking about this issue Land they're like, dude. We're living it too. Yeah, I mean, we're not breakeven. It was an interesting peak into how to do it. Now, just recently in the last 6, 7 months, we've gotten a lot of VCs who've been calling us because we share everything. So When we if you're a sales partner or an advertising partner with Evergreen, you're a podcast you know, a partner Northeast, we're sending out a bunch of information to you on a weekly basis. You're getting a weekly download report from us, which lists all of our podcasts Land what they're doing on a weekly basis.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:26:59]: And then on an annual basis. It's a real interesting aggregation of annual and then a monthly download. We have a top 25 list of our own network that we send out. Our top channels we list. And by sharing all The, somehow it's seeped out to the ether Land all these VCs are calling us. Like, you guys have grown. Like, the growth has been crazy on the download side. Should it be time to talk? And now we're now just recently in the last month or 2, we've had a lot of media companies who are knocking on the door.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:27:30]: I wanna sign NDAs to talk about, are you worthy to be acquired? And so We've had to craft a vetting list of how we wanna go about, are we gonna get sold? Do we wanna be sold? Are we ready? That's a big question for us. Do we want to lose our independence? We've turned down a couple investment offers because The was evaluation issue. Those are pretty easy and straightforward. Like you're not hitting our target in terms of valuation. The was a little bit more friendly, but it really came down to, as a team, we just didn't like some of the personality traits. If you're financial partners, that's a marriage. And that marriage has got to be rock solid, because we've all heard horror stories. Oh, yeah.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:28:21]: Of that board mix Land their expectations versus yours. And the truth be told, when we got that last offer, I don't think my team was ready for it. When we sat down with our team, like The is what venture capital means. We take in a 1,000,000 and a half. They're looking at 10 to 15 times minimum return on that money. Minimum. That Means we gotta give them back 15,000,000. It's a very expensive money.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:28:47]: And how do we do that? Well, to do that, we've gotta be around 50 to $60,000,000 in run rate. And I mean, you could just see the staff like, holy shit. Like, you know, there's no way we're ready for that. We will be. That's what I love about the team. Like, We'll get there. But today, when that offer came in, we're not. And that I do appreciate from the staff and from Joan.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:29:14]: The board is pretty simple. It's Joan and I. And we we talked just like you and I are talking right now on the podcast about the issues of the day. She's not involved in the day to Lay, so I have to give her a lot of color commentary. And she has extraordinarily detailed questions about the industry, about our personnel, about the marketplace trends that we're seeing. And we're pretty quick and crafting strategy around that that we can deploy with the family office capital that she's able to provide. It's a finite amount to be sure. So, you know, we at this point, we've hit every target and beyond.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:29:58]: I mean, beyond imagination. With the exception of the revenue side of the house, which we have a stake in the game. We're making money. I didn't like how the sales Cycles were working for us.

Jeffrey Stern [00:30:12]: Well, how do you make money? How does Evergreen bring bring cash in the door?

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:30:18]: Multiple ways. We're not your typical network. Clearly, at the episode level, you're looking at cost per mil, right? And those targets for us are generally between $35.50 CPM. And for those who are uninitiated in the world of of, podcast. It's For every 1,000 downloads, someone's gonna stroke me a check for that amount. Say $30. Land that's a hard way to make a living, quite frankly. You know, it is not content friendly.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:30:51]: So we've started to slowly implement 2 other pricing metrics. 1 is you can just buy the episode. We get a flat rate. It's like going to Walmart. Yeah, there's the price, and you're gonna pay that price for the episode. That's beginning to work a lot better for us as opposed to a cost per mil. Because some of our shows, they may have an audience of, let's say, 35 to 4000 downloads a month but it's a niche. So that price per episode works better on a niche product than a general pop culture podcast, which is being blasted out to everybody.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:31:27]: And then we're playing around now with sponsorship levels. So we've sold recently Microsoft on a sponsorship package. Those are typically larger numbers. There's generally a request of some sort of branding within the tile or, you know, the the podcast canon. Be it on its landing page, in newsletters, social media mentions, and the like. I love the sponsorship route. Land I love the price per episode route. We also or a production house.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:31:56]: So we get paid to produce podcasts for others. DVR Media, Chipotle, Storyworth, or some of our more significant clients. We're out crafting podcasts that they will distribute. And we, you know, we of that that business. That's why we bought this old radio station in downtown Cleveland was that we We just wanted that studio capacity to grow that side of the business. So those are the primary ways. We also have an in house marketing group, which From time to time, it does get inquiries. And we're beginning to build out an audience building product that we can either help the podcast deliver downloads for them through digital ads or and I think this is a better strategy, but we're trying not both to help build your Apple to get your those subscribers in Apple to improve your subscription base essentially.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:32:55]: If you're spending $1,000 to get 500 new subscribers, The just on raw numbers is gonna project out to 6,000 downloads a year. That's a good underpinning. A decent underpinning for a show. Not great, decent. But we love these 2 technologies that we're using for download growth and for subscription growth. The download growth, Problem is if you don't have a big budget or consistent budget, it's like a Marvel movie opening up. The 1st weekend is big money. And then it declines every week thereafter if you're not improving your spend or consistently having that spend.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:33:33]: So we've learned a lot with these audience building tools, and we're slowly beginning to brand them and take those out to market as well. So we could have a whole digital ad agency essentially as a side business. That's helping podcasts like yours find a marketplace, grow their marketplace or grow their subscription base.

Jeffrey Stern [00:33:52]: When you think about building this this media company, ultimately, there's kind of a A two way street where, you know, both the podcaster is looking for resources, but it sounds like content Isn't necessarily the the bottleneck for for y'all? How do you curate the content? What is the content creation strategy? You mentioned also there's There's some original content in house. There's there's this outside content. How do you identify good content? How do how do you build these podcast brands?

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:34:22]: In the early days of Wild West, we'd almost take anything anyone who would talk to us would, yeah, you're on the network. We've changed our behavior quite a bit. Today, we follow a channel strategy. So if you're not The of our main channels, it's gonna be hard to add you onto the network, quite frankly. So our biggest channels are history, health and wellness, HR tech, which is a super niche, super, super niche. But we've got like 5 of the top 10 HR tech podcasts in the Lay, and they deliver a significant audience, believe it or not. Those 3 channels should hit a 1,000,000 plus in downloads for the year. And we've already kind of adopted some strategies on how to grow the key titles in that.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:35:09]: You generally have an anchor title in those channels and you build around it. And that's the strategy. Like I will take a leap of faith on a smaller Northeast. Conflicted being a perfect example of Yeah, a thousand, 1500 downloads a month. Love the content, long form history, very detailed. I love Stern, so it was a natural for me. Yeah, he's he's doing 20,000 a month now. And a lot of this has to do with the channel.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:35:38]: The channel brought him up. And then we identified a strategy for him to grow it. And it wasn't through these audience building tools. It was actually through Facebook, which is is conflicting for me because I'm not the biggest fan of Facebook. But those history groups Stern perfect audiences for his Northeast. And we decided to market to all these different history groups within Facebook. So that growth from 1500 a month to now, he's he's hitting 20,000 a month in downloads. That's that's a significant That's a risk that we we like to take, and we're willing to do that.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:36:16]: We have purchased other podcasts. We acquired PitPass Moto with the understanding that we were slowly over a period of time going to build out The original PitPass Moto podcast to PitPass Land, which we launched this year. Next year, we're launching PitPass Formula 1. Hopefully, next fall, we'll launch nass you know, pit pass, nah NASCAR. We also acquired a pretty significant ownership in 5 minute news. With the same understanding. 5 in the news, 5 in the sports, 5 in The business. You got brand extension.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:36:50]: An interesting thing to start to develop, though, So that HR channel that I mentioned, the 3 big shows on that channel for us are HCM Tech Report, Chad and Cheese and the recruiting future. So it's about 85% of that channels downloads are in those 3 shows. The other 10 shows give you 15%. To help those other 10 shows, we built out in Megaphone, which is our posting distribution platform. You can create playlists that form their own channel Land also give you a separate download, IAB compliant download. This is brilliant. And no one's using this technology. So just in the last week, underneath the radar, we've launched 3 HR niche Lay.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:37:40]: HR news, HR interviews Land like and HR analysis show. Like, what are the big technology plays in HR that we wanna understand? And then we'll assign the episodes underneath that playlist. And just like I said, The the last couple of days, we've got them out to most of the major playlists. I see big things for that playlist technology for us, especially in the history space, health and wellness, where then we can craft these little Lay underneath and get that download. That's a separate revenue stream for us, right? As opposed to the individual show or the channel. So the strategy has played out much better than I ever thought. And we do understand the space and the technology. We had what I think most startups do.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:38:24]: And is The, we Brought on a chief revenue officer who just didn't work out. Land that set us back 20 months Land we're trying to play catch up now. We're definitely on the right path. We've tripled our sales pipeline in the last 6 months. We've improved our technology. But the missing link for us right now, if you were to look at the company Land I'll be honest, there are days where we're putting it together with bubble gum and band aids. That's the startup, right? It's like, you're moving your division in the field, right? The tank breaks down. We don't have time to fix the tank.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:38:58]: We've got to keep moving. We'll come back to The tank. Don't Don't worry about the tank. Keep moving forward. We gotta press. Land my strategy is pretty simple. We're pressing all the time. Tank breaks down, Jeep breaks down.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:39:09]: We'll come back and fix it, but we gotta move. Everyone is aligned in that. Amazingly, well, we've got an insanely great team of young people who are moving this company. My 2 most critical departments, account management and production, are run by 2 millennials who came into the company to do one thing, did not do well of that one thing Land we moved them to a different seat on the bus. And they blossomed because we finally found that place where they could thrive. So everything in this company has been moving lockstep growth, pressure, content aggregation with the exception of sales, the revenue side. Like I said, we're generating revenue. It's getting better.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:39:52]: We've doubled over last year. And I think we're starting to figure out the secret sauce, but we just we just had a great decent person in a spot that he was not ready for. And sometimes, you know it, and you fail to pull the trigger until it's critical. The the one mistake that I've made that I just I wrestle with, to be quite frankly with you, Jeffrey. And we've all done it. We've all had that 1 person in the startup, like, why is he or she still here. And The human thing comes in like, awesome dude, cultural fit, everyone loved him, couldn't produce. And then you go back to the initial three things.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:40:31]: Well, he's a great culture. The right, he's not producing. The pressure we just raised a new round of money. It is exclusively focused on sales and marketing. So I gotta get it right. Now that we're at that pressure point where the analytics are proving you've got the right model, right? The content's coming in, the content's growing exponentially. All right, now let's start bagging some dollars. And that's where we're at.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:40:58]: Truth be told, we're at a critical junction The we're honest about. You know, a lot of startups don't allay that fear, but we'll we'll put it out there. We're at this point where The revenues have got to catch up with the rest of the firm. Or otherwise, we're you know, we've got to make that go no go decision soon. I don't know what soon means. I know that we've got a commitment for another round. So I think we're good until like 2023, 2024. But that comes sooner rather than later, right? I mean, you really gotta start putting some turbocharge of everything.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:41:34]: And so we're just we're planting a lot of resources right now into our sales and marketing initiatives to ensure that the company's got growth prospects that merit the rest of the firm. Land Lay point, when we built Evergreen, We wanted to build a brand. We wanted to lead with the brand. And it's fascinating to me as we're getting the phone calls now in the emails, and let's meet Land let's talk about what you guys are doing. The brand has far exceeded sometimes who we are. Do you understand? Like, people think it's much bigger than what it is. And that's a success, but it's also a warning sign that you got to get caught up, right? And it's a unique place to be. I've been in a lot of startups that have grown significantly.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:42:25]: I think in my 1st 2 years of fit, we tripled in size. It's much bigger company than Evergreen is right now. And so you're holding on to a rocket ship with your fingernails. I've been through The experience. I know what it's like. I know how to manage it, I think. And And I think I've got the right team. But now it's all it's all in strategy deployment.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:42:44]: And and that's that that's where we're at. I mean, it's a great place to be. It's a scary place to be.

Jeffrey Stern [00:42:50]: Yeah. That that existential laden feeling, it is always there.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:42:56]: It is. And, But the one thing I can say, the team has matured into it. As I mentioned earlier, that offer that we got Land what it meant, and we're explaining it to The. And that fear that kinda set in their eyes. And then it was like slowly like, no, we got this. We need some time to figure it out, but we know how to do this. That's a really cool feedback loop from your team. And we always encourage that.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:43:22]: Now The feedback loop was better pre COVID to be quite frank. I'm the only one in the office. We got an office here in Lakewood that we had 20 people in. We've grown since then, but I'm not in touch with those 20 people like I was on a daily basis before. So it becomes a bit more of a challenge. But I think we've got I think we've got the aces. I mean, it's how do we play them? Hopefully, we'll figure it out. But you're right, man.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:43:52]: That existential fear. That's what keeps me up at night. It's like, man, how do I get the revenue side caught up with the rest of us Land do it quick.

Jeffrey Stern [00:43:59]: If you crack that that code, the the secret sauce, you know, the the tens Land millions in downloads, the revenue catching up, What is ultimately the impact that you hope to have with the with the company?

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:44:12]: I think our pay our capital is a bit more patient than a typical venture investment. But the ultimate goal is just the same as a venture firm, which is we're gonna exit at some point. I mean, The assets are valuable enough that I think there's enough vouchers around that if there's a death cell, The someone would pick up the assets and would wanna carry them on in some fashion. That's clearly not where we wanna go. I think we've attracted enough market interest that a sale is probable, but the time frame, you know, I'm really kinda hoping to push it out. I would like to have I would like to have another 5 to 7 year run with this before we decided to to move on. You know, fortune or failure may intercede and dictate a different timeline. But the way we're planning right now is immediately 5 years.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:45:06]: Like what can we do in the next 5 to build up what we need to build up and then to eventually sell.

Jeffrey Stern [00:45:12]: Tying it back to Cleveland for a bit, a few few threads I wanna pull on both Kind of playing on your, your interest in, in history of Cleveland, which will, which will get you to Land of close out. But how much of the network Do you think about from a geographic focus standpoint versus kind of the industry or topic standpoint as you've kind of laid it out? Does geography play into the equation at all in in terms of your proximity here in Cleveland or or things of that nature?

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:45:41]: Very early on, when we made the switch from front porch people to evergreen. We we did not want to be seen as a Cleveland company. And and not to be hard on Cleveland, we wanted to be a global company. And like 82% of our downloads come from the United States. And then our next 4 markets are Great Britain, Australia, Canada, and India. We just signed a deal with Geo7 out of India. So I think our Indian numbers are going to improve because we're putting our podcast on their music platform. So it'll be a slow roll, but we'll eventually have all of our podcasts on the Geo7 network out of India.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:46:18]: And likewise, they're gonna give us, I think we're starting off with 10 or 15 Hindi language based podcasts that will be reciprocated back to us as we fulfill this obligation in our agreement. We've always wanted to be global. I didn't wanna get in the trap of just a whole list of just Cleveland based shows. I didn't wanna be the Cleveland podcast network. And that is not to belittle any of the podcasts in Cleveland. Because we love them. And there are some that we have on our network, and I'd like to add more. But I didn't want to be known as that regional network.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:46:54]: Do you understand? I didn't wanna be geography based. It was always we're gonna be global, we're gonna be big. Our catalogs are gonna be expansive and exciting. And the brand was never really geared for the local market, it was geared for a global marketplace. I'm glad we can do it in Cleveland because we're under the radar. I don't think there's a lot of people know that we exist in Cleveland. But we're producing shows in the UK and Sweden. And we're getting calls from China and Singapore.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:47:24]: And, I mean, it is bewildering to me. Land sometimes, like I sit in my office like, I mean, I just talked to someone from you know, China. And it just blows my mind. They wanna do something with us. That is really appealing and exciting for us The we're Stern as a global brand. But from the Cleveland perspective, I hope that someday we get some recognition. And especially people who wanna work with us and for us in Cleveland. I may have mentioned we bought a building in Cleveland.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:47:58]: So we're moving from Lakewood back into the city. It's an old radio station on Saint Cleveland it'll give us an expansive resource that we hope is open and moving 24 hours a Lay, to be quite frank of people coming in recording. Because we'll have the studio space at that point where you can have multiple studios running at the same time and recording all sorts of interesting things. We've got the technology platform to distribute. I mean, it doesn't matter to us if it's 1 a day or 10,000,000 a Lay, we've got the capacity to do it. And now we just gotta fulfill it. So, I'm glad we're in Cleveland because the expense of building the company has been fairly nominal relative to the coasts or Chicago. We didn't have to move, you know, if there's some discussion with group in California like, well, you gotta move here.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:48:47]: I don't wanna move there. I mean, I love San Francisco and I love the Valley. I can't live there. I just can't The 1 hour drive to get to work. My universe from my house to my office is 1 mile. And if I need to leave work to go see my kid or do something with my family, I have that flexibility. And that means a lot. You know, Cleveland can offer a lot for a startup.

Jeffrey Stern [00:49:11]: And then more than just startups. I mean, one of the things I I've I've been really curious to get your perspective on is, when I moved to Cleveland, I moved downtown. And of the things that of struck me the most were Just kind of the the beauty and aesthetic of these old historical buildings. And, on top of, you know, what what you're building, I know you are also an author of this kind of lost exploration, lost Cleveland, lost hotels at Cleveland, lost apartment stores. And this is something that has always struck me here in Cleveland The how do you protect the best parts of Cleveland from Making an appearance in your future works. You know, like how do we how do we protect, like, what is really, I think, unique asset and and strength of the city that I would just wanna I'd love to get your perspective on that.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:50:02]: Well, I will say the one thing that has radically changed from my time at the city to today is that they're saving the old buildings and reusing them. So the departments The Slust Department Stores, The Cleveland book I just wrote. Most of those department store buildings are being used to this day as either office space or better yet as as, living space. The May company, Higbee's, Hallie's. You know, the Sterling building, which is where we started Bluebridge Networks. That was a Sterling Land department store. And before Sterling Linder, it was the original Higbee's uptown store. So the one thing that I always loved about my job at the city was I could get into these buildings.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:50:47]: Once I convinced them I wasn't going to find them for anything, there's always this hurt on the ownership side. Like, Oh, he's gonna come in. I'm not in code. And I was like, Lay, man, I'll be quite frank, I'm not really worried about that. What I really would like to do is see what the building is, so that I can help from the city perspective of filling that building up. Believe it or not, one of the only groups In the 1st year, the only group that would really work with me was, Playhouse Square. You know, Tom Einhouse was a grizzled vet at that point who had saved a number of the, old, Lay. And The owned a lot of those buildings.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:51:25]: And he was They're willing to take a risk. He was like, Hey, man. We'll give you below market rent and build out if you can get people in. And they were starting to think about what to do with Idea Center. So out of those 35 original tech companies that I brought in, I think 15 ended up in Lay Square. I mean, it was like an Land the rest were kinda split up a warehouse district and some other buildings. You know, Playhouse Square was the Lay. And that's what you need critical mass.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:51:52]: That's what Cleveland needs. Listen, Just recently, we bought this building in East 26th. But in the last couple weeks, for whatever reason, I've ended up between East 26 Land East 80th for different events. And I end up driving around these neighborhoods. There's so many buildings, empty buildings The merit new life. Not just in downtown. I mean, midtown, Saint Clair, Superior. I think it's fair to say the west side of Cleveland far exceeds what's happening on the east side of Cleveland with maybe the exception of University Circle.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:52:23]: I've always thought between lake and Broadway from East 25th to East 105th. That that's the last undiscovered country of Cleveland. Yeah. The is where we need to get back and raise up that east side of Cleveland through development, housing. Get rid of the 30 by 80 lot. That was the norm in Cleveland, Ohio.

Jeffrey Stern [00:52:46]: The a

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:52:46]: lot of people built 2 houses on that 30 by 80 lot. Yeah, you see a lot in Tremont where you got 2 houses back to back. Double it. I mean, we got space. I mean, we got green space. It's just how you really define how you wanna rebuild the city. I will be honest with The. Every time I went out to talk to a company, I'd be like, hey, I just wanna be frank with you.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:53:07]: I want you to move your company to Cleveland. And I will make that happen, and I'll do everything I can. And you would hear all the tropes. Well, there's murders. There's drug dealers on East 9th Street. Like, I've lived in Cleveland 20 plus years. I've never seen a drug deal go down on East 9th Street. But Lay.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:53:24]: I hear you. You know, I get It's it's, you know, dogs and cats living together, Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. That's the feeling of the periphery of Cleveland. It's not true. It's just not true. Once you beat those tropes, you can't beat Cleveland. Cleveland's got soul. Solon doesn't have soul.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:53:43]: Solon's soulless. Independence, soulless. I'm sorry. They can say whatever they want about it. I've gotten Cast arrows in the newspapers Land the opinion pages back in the day when I was a bit more relevant than I am today. Didn't care. You know, the city of Cleveland hired me. I was a zealot advocate on behalf of the city of Cleveland.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:54:04]: And it's wonderful when when you look on Twitter. How many more of us today than there were then? There was only a handful of us raising the flag like move to Cleveland. It's the best thing ever. Once you get here, man, people are like, why did I why did I start my company in, you know, wherever? I don't know, but we're glad you're here. Cleveland's got a lot to sell. And the next generation, it's gonna be in housing on Northeast side, it's gotta be. And once you figure out how to build housing on bigger lots. It's gonna be a game changer for the city because it's gonna be a land rush like Oklahoma.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:54:42]: And it's just people want Stake their claim Lay buy buy these new homes Land this new inventory. I hope it happens. I think politically, you can see some alignment beginning to happen. I think I saw an article today, like, you know, Bib is up 9 9 points in in the city of Cleveland race. I'll be honest, I'm a big, big fan Land I hope he wins. And then you got Ronayne running for chief executive of Cuyahoga County. Renee was the chief of staff when I was at the city. And he's The obviously moved on The Of Circle.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:55:16]: Mean, Of Circle, what he's done there, it's a miracle. It's just unbelievably great. And if you can apply those 2 guys, you finally have 2 guys who are serious advocates for the city of Cleveland. You have a moment in time where it could be a game changer, where you could start to see population increases, new development, new housing creation. It's all there for the taking. The assets that Cleveland have far outstrip most big, even bigger cities The than, you know, I mean, there's very few cities that can punch in the same weight class as Cleveland. I mean, you got New York and Chicago, maybe LA. Denver doesn't have the same cultural aspects that Cleveland has.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:55:57]: Yeah, and I love Denver. Don't wanna piss anyone in your listeners off in Denver. But I have a deep love affair with the city of Cleveland. It's a hard place sometimes to be sure. But I love it. Land, it fits my personality. I've done everything I beyond imagine in the city. Everything great in my life has happened in The city.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:56:23]: It's just my wife, my kid, The fame, the fortune, the failure, all of it. I would do it all over again. And probably in the same way because it's just, it's just been a gratifying place to be. And I hope other people feel that way.

Jeffrey Stern [00:56:38]: My, I do not think you will offend any of our, our dozen of people and tell it listeners here who, Who share it in the pride and the, and the struggle of Cleveland. But it, it, it, there is, there is an energy it's, You know, just in the in the time that I've been here, it's it's changed in in pretty remarkable ways.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:56:56]: Yeah. I agree. Every time I go into the city, I went to the, the Van Gogh experience immersion on East 72nd. Here you are, all these empty warehouses. You turn on East 72nd, And there's this big building with all this Van Gogh art on the outside. It means just a pop of energy, man. And the people who are in that building We're not from Cleveland. But to bring them into that Stern, into that building, amazing.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:57:25]: And just recently, I went to the Morgan Conservatory, which is over on East 45th, I believe. Just another stunning experience of this oasis in the middle of blight. I mean, that's obviously a challenged neighborhood. That's one of the reasons why we bought this building on East 26. We wanted to be We're all of The. The the 3 main owners of Evergreen personally bought this building. And we did it because we just wanna stake our claim in Cleveland. We wanted to be a creative force and a center point for people to use that building 247.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:58:01]: You know? You want you need to record your podcast at midnight? Come in. We'll make it happen. We wanna do events? Come in. We wanna do we hopefully, we're we're kinda planning a summer concert series of podcasts and music. I don't know. Obviously, we can't do it this year. But hopefully, things get better next year. Yeah, come over, let's do it.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:58:20]: Like, we wanna be that creative energy spot in that neighborhood The people start looking around like, let's buy this building, let's do this. I wanna bring my business into this area. That's when it gets exciting. You need some pioneers, of course, and I hope that we're gonna be those pioneers.

Jeffrey Stern [00:58:38]: 1, in the spirit of things under the radar, my, closing question for for everyone on the Show is for things in Cleveland that not necessarily their favorite things, but The things that other people may not know about, their their hidden gems. So with that, I I pose this question to you.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:58:55]: Yeah. This is an easy one. I saw this question where we're doing some, preproduction work. Right? The Saxonheim The, Denison. It's a mind blowing experience if you haven't been there. It's an old German hall. So that's near West 65th area in Denison. It's the old stockyards for the city of Cleveland.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:59:15]: And you can still see the old cattle pens along the street Land The buildings with the the butcher names. It it's a fascinating, you know, urban archaeology place to drive through, you know? But I've been for years, this is a long time ago, of course. The been here The, oh, the Saksenheim Hall. Like no one really could explain where it was, but some people have been there. Land anyway, One Lay, I was driving this is like 15 years ago. Driving down, and I ended up on Denison in Air West. This beautiful old German music hall. It's got 2 music studio.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [00:59:48]: More like concert halls in there. 1 small, 1 little bigger. I think the owner lives on the top floor. But in the basement is essentially a taco joint. And I went in there. The waitresses are rude. They're mean to you. I think that's their way of saying that they love you.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [01:00:03]: But there's there's cops in there. There's politicians. There's millennials. There's people from the suburbs. It's a weird mix. But it's a beautiful mix. You get people from the The. You'd think there'd be friction, but everyone's in there having a good time eating some tacos, drinking some beer steins, save for the cops.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [01:00:24]: Sextonheim Hall, it was one of the best it Stern is one of the best experiences I've had in the city because that shows you what the city can be like if you let it blossom and happen.

Jeffrey Stern [01:00:35]: That is a wonderful gem to add to the collage here. Thank you for that one. Sure. Well, Michael, I really appreciate you coming on and, and telling your Stern and sharing about what you're building at Evergreen.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [01:00:49]: Jeffrey, I love spending time with entrepreneurs. I really was quite humbled that you invited me on. So now that I'm in the club, I hope that we connect more often and we have more conversations.

Jeffrey Stern [01:01:01]: Absolutely. , I look forward to it. If folks have anything they would like to follow-up with you about, where is the best place for them to do so?

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [01:01:09]: Well, they can they can always email me at mdaloya@evergreenpodcast.com, and my last name is spelled d e a l o I a. And hell, I'll even throw out my cell phone number because I don't care. 216-212-4067. You know, I'm always happy to meet with anyone. I mean, anyone who's who's making things happen is a person I want to know. Be it an artist, philosopher, poet, entrepreneur, politician. I just love spending time with people.

Jeffrey Stern [01:01:40]: Awesome. Well, thank again. Really appreciate your time.

Michael DeAloia (Evergreen Podcasts) [01:01:44]: My pleasure.