#58: Ryan Young (Fello)

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:00:00]:
Basically, what FlashHouse has evolved to is really the only, you know, we basically empower agents to offer their own iBuying solution. And, you know, our mission is basically to eventually have every realtor be able to offer an instant offer when they go on an appointment. And so, you know, it's it's evolved so much from where it turned into this guaranteed sale program to now this agent led iBuying tool. And, you know, it's starting to just take off. It's pretty crazy.

Jeffrey Stern [00:00:31]:
Let's discover the Cleveland entrepreneurial ecosystem. We are telling the stories of its entrepreneurs and those supporting them. Welcome to the lay of the land podcast where we are exploring what people are building in Cleveland. I am your host, Jeffrey Stern. And today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Ryan Young. Ryan is the co founder and chief strategy officer at FlashHouse where he is on a mission to create a seamless real estate buying experience, empower realtors, and simplify the stressful process of buying and selling homes. Ryan was born with real estate in his blood as a 3rd generation in the industry. He is also the CEO of the young team named by Real Trends and The Wall Street Journal as one of the top 250 real estate teams in the country where they have helped thousands of clients buy and sell homes.

Jeffrey Stern [00:01:25]:
I really enjoyed learning about the ins and outs of Ibuying the larger real estate industry and how flash house has differentiated itself in a truly competitive market. Market. Please enjoy my conversation with Ryan Young. So before we get to FlashHouse and the work you're doing today, I would love to start this conversation with your journey through through real estate. I know you've kind of had an interesting path not originally in real estate. So, you know, tell us a little bit about how it is that that you got into this space.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:02:05]:
Yeah. So I do have a unique path. I actually graduated high school, and during high school, I cooked throughout my entire high school, you know, career and actually decided to go to culinary school when I turned 18. So if I was gonna go to culinary school, I was gonna go to the best one and went to the Culinary Institute of America in Hyde Park, New York. And I aspire to be this world class chef and I did it for about 10 years, cooked all over the country, some of the best restaurants in the country. And, you know, it's funny. I the restaurant industry is extremely hard on you physically, mentally, emotionally, and I think I was about 26 when all of a sudden I just kinda I just kinda hit a wall and I decided I wanted more in life besides just cooking and, you know, work and everything like that. And so, reached out to my folks who were actually realtors in Cleveland and said, mom, dad, what do you guys think about me coming back home and getting into business with you? And I had no education to do so.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:03:11]:
I had no I was never extremely entrepreneurial growing up. I was a chef. And, you know, they said, sure. You know, let's do it. It was 2009. The market was in the dumps. They Nice. It they're literally it was just one of those things.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:03:27]:
It's like, why not? Let's get you back to Cleveland. You probably won't do this for long, but at least it gets you back here. And once it gets you back here, then you can figure out what you really wanna do. And so I moved back to Cleveland, and I did work at a restaurant while I started in real estate, but I started working with them. And I just I fell in love with it and I I fell in love with every angle of helping people and the hustle and the grind. And, you know, I found that I was I came from a world where you worked 80 hours a week and, you know, you only got paid to work 40, but you you put in your hours in the kitchen. And all of a sudden, I came into this other world where there were a lot of part timers and there was a lot of people that, you know, were doing this as a hobby. And I saw this major opportunity of, like, you apply kind of a culinary work ethic to an industry where there's no ceiling and it's just I got a little taste of that and it just I couldn't let go and I just started pushing harder and harder, and we started growing this team.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:04:30]:
And next thing you know, we've got a team now of 25 people 28 people, the young team. And, you know, we sell over 600 homes a year. We're top team in Ohio. And it's just amazing to see over the past decade this, you know, this culinary this culinary guy that all of a sudden got a taste for business and for, you know, building and, you know, all of a sudden became much more entrepreneurial. And so 10 years later, it's just amazing to see kinda to look back and to see what I used to do and to where we are now and what we built with our real estate team. The young team, it's been incredible.

Jeffrey Stern [00:05:05]:
Yeah. Can you can you give us a little bit of an overview of of Young Luxury and and the Young team and and what you've been working on there?

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:05:13]:
Yeah. So the Young so I joined my folks, started building the Young team. And over the past decade, we've just kind of kept seeing what I would consider as holes in the market. And one of the things that we're extremely excited about is we started Youngluxury. And Youngluxury, I actually, I had a relationship with a very large broker in New York City, And when COVID started, him and his family were kind of getting ready to get out of there. And he grew up in Central Ohio, and I started having some conversations with him. And I just I see Northeast Ohio, we have these beautiful homes and we have, you know, these incredible estates, and I don't think we're marketing them appropriately. I don't think that I I don't think they get the level of attention that you would get in a larger, you know, metropolitan market like in New York or the Hamptons or San Francisco or these Miamis of the world where, you know, this client experience is just absolutely incredible, and and that's what the clients expect.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:06:19]:
And so we kinda said, what's what could you do with us in Cleveland? And, you know, the guy sold $20,000,000 apartments in New York City, and we started kind of brainstorming and saying, wait, let's actually put our heads together and let's actually let's do something out here. And we we started Young Luxury. Young Luxury is just a boutique firm that basically focuses on homes luxury homes in Northeast Ohio. Basically, homes over $1,000,000, which compared to New York City, I know that's probably considered adorable. You know, it's a studio. That's first time homebuyer studio. But, no. I mean, so we've we've been building, and we've been taking just some of the things that he's done in New York and some of the things that he has relationships with brokers on the West Coast, and just really, really changing the game from a luxury standpoint.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:07:08]:
And the crazy thing about it is I don't think a lot of the luxury clients so far that we've really helped, I don't think they've had the expectations or standards of what we're actually doing and once they see how we've approached selling their property and what were the level of attention to detail that we're providing, I think now all of a sudden they're blown away. And I think just naturally in Northeast Ohio, we've kind of set this standard of we do things the way we do things here, and that's just the way it is. And we're really looking to push that and break that, you know, that mode of, like, that's acceptable. And so we're really bullish on it. We feel like the luxury market well, I know we'll talk a little bit about technology and some somewhat of this digital transformation. We feel like the luxury market is one of the few places niche markets, whether it's real estate or travel or auto or whatever it is. We feel like that's one of the immune industries to disruption in technology. We think it has a place there, but we don't think that all of a sudden robots are gonna be selling, you know, ultra luxury properties.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:08:14]:
We we in our experience, the client still wants an experience, and they still want their handheld, and they they still want to be able to pick up the phone and call someone and have a conversation. And, you know, we we just we acknowledge that and we really we really provide that type of experience to them.

Jeffrey Stern [00:08:32]:
Over the last decade or so as you've been kind of entrenched in the space, you you mentioned you didn't necessarily always think of yourself as entrepreneurial. But at what point did you begin to think about beyond, you know, kind of the real estate transaction where there is maybe opportunity for you to create a product or facilitate the the whole overall experience?

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:08:56]:
I started to to to develop an appetite for growth pretty quickly when I got into it. And I think I saw that my growth was limited without the introduction of, you know, product and technology and these these tools that can really help you scale quick, whether it could be not just product and technology, it could be marketing. You know, we started marketing at a much larger frequency on things like television and radio versus marketing to just little target micro markets because frequency hits all, you know, on radio or television, it hits all over Northeast Ohio, which started expanding our business geographically. So I think as soon as you start to get an appetite for growth is when all of a sudden you need to introduce other tools to help you do so. And I think that was a major eye opener to me joining a real estate team or, you know, my basically my parents that have been doing things the same way for the past 25 years. And and they were great at what they did. They just kinda stayed within their comfort zone, and, you know, it's it's I wanted to get uncomfortable.

Jeffrey Stern [00:10:03]:
Yeah. So the I think that's probably the best segue to start talking about FlashHouse and and Yep. And the work you're doing there. So so maybe you can just walk us through the specific history of FlashHouse, how it was founded, the the reason you founded it at the time that you did, and, you know, a little bit of the history of of what you've done since then.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:10:22]:
Yeah. So, really bullish on FlashHouse and the disruption in real estate that we're seeing. And we actually have this, like, very unique kind of evolution of how FlashHouse started to where it is now. And, basically, you know, our real estate team, we started to get pretty aggressive with some of our messaging. And one of our messages were, if we can't sell your home, we'll buy it. And, you know, this was probably started this in, like, 2015. We started marketing it on the radio and on TV, and, you know, that's a pretty compelling message, and it started making the phones ring. We also were doing it in an appreciating market, and homes were selling relatively quick.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:11:01]:
So we actually didn't buy any homes because all of them were selling. Right? You know, if this we started this in 2009, we probably would have had to buy a lot of homes. But what what ended up happening was I got a call from a gentleman and he said, I hear your ads all the time. I'm actually in Alaska, but I stream Cleveland Radio, and I hear your ads about if you can't sell my home, you'll buy it. And I'm actually calling about my mom's house. She's out here now in Alaska as well with assisted living, and I I want you to buy her house. And I told him, I said, you know, I appreciate that you reaching out, but we we don't buy them unless we can't sell them. And he kept saying, I I hear that, but I just want you to buy it.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:11:42]:
I don't wanna deal with it. I don't wanna have to fly back to Cleveland. Can you just buy it? And so finally, I, you know, I explained to him. I'm like, if I buy it, I just I'm gonna buy it below market value and I can help you sell it for more money if we put it on the market. And he's like, That doesn't I'm not interested in making more money. I'm interested in the convenience of the sale. And so I ended up buying it. And, you know, after I ended up forming a pretty close relationship with them, and I I just like I kept I kept trying to talk you out of me buying it because I kept focusing on how much more we could sell it for.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:12:15]:
And he's like, Ryan, it didn't matter to me. Like, that was not what was important. The importance was the convenience. I didn't wanna be interrupted. I wanna spend I don't know how much time my mom has. I didn't wanna have to fly back to Cleveland to get it ready. And so kind of the light bulb went off of not everyone just values top net dollar. And especially in the world we're in today, when you think of just Uber and Uber Eats and Amazon and everything is convenience.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:12:40]:
Right? And it's a click of a button. And so, you know, the light bulb went off of instead of doing this guaranteed sale program, let's just do an instant offer program where there's a lot of other people like him that that want this convenience. And so I started doing some research and started all of a sudden learning a little bit more. This is about 3 years ago. Started learning a little bit more about what they call iBuyers. And Ibuyers are really popular right now in the Southwest, in the South, in the Mid Atlantic, in the Northwest. And what Ibuyers basically are is just they provide you an instant offer on your home. You go on their website and you fill out some information and they basically buy your home.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:13:20]:
There's 2 very large ones, Opendoor and Offerpad that went public. I mean, these are massive companies. They're both $1,000,000,000 companies backed by $1,000,000,000 companies, and you're starting to see they're picking up a lot of traction, you know? And so I I started seeing just what was happening, and I reached out to a friend of mine that I grew up with in Orange and said, hey, Take a look at these iBuyers. This is kind of an interesting business model, and, you know, let's talk about it. And so all of a sudden, we decided from taking the instant offer, you know, that the young team was offering to actually turning it into a business, to building out the technology and, you know, the platform, we called it FlashHouse, with the intentions of basically expanding FlashHouse throughout the Midwest. And being an iBuyer, we put together a team of engineers, and our third partner, his name's Tom, is, like, this product genius, and just he really does a good job visualizing from the consumer journey all the way through. And so all of a sudden, we put together this really cool platform, and we started marketing it. And next thing you know, people were the phones didn't stop ringing.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:14:29]:
You know, a bunch of people wanted offers on their properties. And, you know, so that's that's kind of where we were, I would say, up to about 6 months ago. This is where things got a little bit you know, we just continue to evolve. What was interesting was as FlashHouse was buying homes, right? So I got a real estate company that's selling homes traditionally, and now I've built what would be considered a disruptor to real estate, which is FlashHouse. And I'm sitting here, and I'm seeing the way the young team's conducting their business traditionally, and I'm seeing the way FlashHouse is disrupting realtors. And I started to realize that maybe the young team would benefit from working with FlashHouse versus competing against them. And so what we ended up doing was we started the young team started basically offering instant offers to their clients powered by FlashHouse. So the young team would get a call from a seller.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:15:22]:
They'd go there, and they'd say, here's what we could sell your home for. And we work with this company called FlashHouse, and this is what they're willing to buy it for. And the young team's business started to explode because, you know, FlashHouse was going direct to consumer, but the young team already had a large database and already generated a lot of opportunities. And so all of a sudden, the young team became this Salesforce for FlashHouse, and the the the real light bulb went off that instead of trying to disrupt the real estate industry, why not empower the realtors with the tools that ultimately they are lacking right now? Realtors do not have the ability to provide their clients this optionality of a traditional sale or a convenience option like an instant offer. And so basically, what FlashHouse has evolved to is really the only you know, we basically empower agents to offer their own iBuying solution. And, you know, our mission is basically to eventually have every realtor be able to offer an instant offer when they go on an appointment. And so, you know, it's it's evolved so much from where it turned into this guaranteed sale program to now this agent led Ibuying tool. And, you know, it's starting to just take off.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:16:35]:
It's pretty crazy.

Jeffrey Stern [00:16:37]:
That's an incredible story. I love how kind of the the realization of of taking these two things and and putting them together, and and that is really the catalyst for for the growth that you're experiencing. I think it would be really interesting and and helpful if if you can kinda take us through maybe what a generic deal looks like. You know, what what are the levers you're considering? How is it that you're actually making money and maybe going into a little bit of the calculus so that you kind of ensure that you're not getting trapped by overpaying for something? What what is kind of the evaluation process

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:17:12]:
here? Yeah. So we play in the predictability market. Right? Like, we feel very and and what's interesting and why you you don't see a lot of Ibuyers in the Midwest is because it's unpredictable versus if you go to Phoenix or Atlanta or Dallas or, you know, all these other markets that are a little bit newer. Basically, the the way it works is the more predictable the property, the more we can pay for it. You know? And the less predictable, we explain to the seller, here's why this is less predictable, whether because comparables don't support it or it's a unique inventory. And so we have to make sure that we build in enough fat essentially to make sure that we can still come out okay. Basically, the way it works is and the way we're protected is we have a scalable process where if someone wants an offer, they go online, They answer about 25 conditional based questions. When they do, they submit, enter.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:18:05]:
We receive the offer request. We have algorithms, machine learning based that sends out an offer. If they accept it, the first thing we do is we actually do a virtual assessment where they walk around the property with their phone or with, you know, an iPad. And basically, we we lay eyes on the property to make sure that it is the way they responded because the biggest differentiator in value is condition. You know, you can take a house that's in great condition and it's priced way different than, you know, a house in poor condition. And so even if they answer the way they did, we have to validate that the answers are what they said they are. So once we validate or verify that the condition is what they said it is, then we actually move forward with the general home inspection just to make sure there's no defects in the property. If there are defects, we have to make a price adjustment to reflect those.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:19:02]:
And as long as the house inspects well or, you know, if we have to make a couple adjustments, we move forward with closing. They can sell their house. You know, we closed houses in a week. We've we've sold, closed on houses in 90 days. It's really whatever the seller wants. It has to be convenient to the seller, and we kinda feel like, you know, to do a 15 minute virtual walk through in an hour inspection and for your house in a 3 minute form online to have your house sold. We feel like it is the most streamlined process and the easiest way to sell a house. The funny thing is a lot of people that have never sold a house before don't realize how stressful it is, what the process is.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:19:42]:
You know, all these people come in and out of your house, the negotiation, deals fall apart. And so, you know, sometimes people don't see the value in it until they actually sell their home traditionally, and then they call us up or send us a message and say, I wish I would have, you know, sold it to FlashHouse. But it it's really just a, you know, a risk tolerance kinda model where we are identifying predictability and making our offers off of it.

Jeffrey Stern [00:20:09]:
Yeah. I wanted to to ask about that. You you mentioned Uber and kind of the other Amazon, the conveniences of our of our everyday life and and, you know, everything will be sold online. Right? If it's not A 100%. Seems that that's the trajectory. But I I wanted to ask about how that translates to real estate given just kind of it's not something we're doing very often. So if there's an aversion or some kind of resistance that that you've you've experienced from from from folks.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:20:38]:
So we are still in the educational phase. All I buyers are. It doesn't matter how much Opendoor is spending marketing, you know, 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of dollars every month about this new company. It just takes a little bit of time to get traction. I I love to joke, you know, as a kid, your parents tell you, don't get in a car with strangers or don't take candy from strangers. And all of a sudden, Uber comes out and you're getting in a car with strangers. And now most of the Ubers are like, hey. Do you want some mints? Do you you know, and it's like, now I'm taking candy from a stranger in a car.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:21:11]:
Obviously, it was a very foreign concept at first. You know? Like, until your your friend did it or you took your first one and you got to where you were going safely, and next thing you know, it's like, how can I how can I live without it? Obviously, this is a bigger decision. It takes a little bit of time to educate the market and get them comfortable. One of the interesting things and one of the reasons why we evolved our model to what we did is where we've had the most success is when the young team brings FlashHouse to the table with their client and there's credibility there, and they could say, we've already they've helped a bunch of our clients. When we're going direct to the consumer, all of a sudden, we have to win them over by showing them examples of homes similar to theirs that we've already acquired and that other people are doing this. This is not a we buy ugly homes. We're not a wholesale, you know, real estate company. But, you know, to tie it back to our new model and what we're so excited about is we earn so much more trust and credibility when we're brought in the door by the realtor that they know and trust.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:22:17]:
And so I think that educates the the consumer much quicker versus us trying to do it all ourselves.

Jeffrey Stern [00:22:25]:
One thing that I wanted to get your perspective on is there's been some, you know, fallout, if you will, in the iBuying space. As I understand it and and you'll correct me if I'm wrong here on the context, but Zillow had this kind of enormous iBuying program and, you know, relying on the company's algorithms where they think we're, you know, trying to to purchase homes. Ultimately ended up paying too much for these homes laid off, you know, thousands of of jobs, and it was, I think, the the largest part of their business from a a revenue perspective. And that, you know, they're writing off 1,000,000,000 of dollars of of losses on the remaining homes that they have. So I I know we've kinda talked a little bit about risk, but, like, what went wrong and how how are you thinking about those kinds of challenges? And and maybe it's it's tied to the idea of predictability that you're talking about, but how do you think about that?

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:23:21]:
So Zillow's, so here's the here's the interesting thing. One of the benefits of Zillow choosing to close down their offers program was that it created a lot of job opportunities or applicants for for us. And so we've talked to several VPs and data scientists and all you know, we've gotten perspective from a lot of different people. In my opinion, Zillow's case study of an Ibuyer is completely in a vacuum compared to everyone else, and here's why. Zillow is not an Ibuyer. Zillow is a real estate platform where they, over the past decade, 15 years, have absolutely dominated that space. Right? They're a publicly traded company. They drive the majority of their profit, their gross profit from real estate fees and from Zillow Mortgage and stuff like that.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:24:14]:
Zillow got an appetite to get into the Ibuying space. Opendoor has been in the Ibuying space since 2012. Zillow got in three and a half years ago. Zillow wanted to be number 1 in the Ibuying space. So all of a sudden, they started telling their team basically from top down, from my understanding, we're not concerned with profitability. Acquire anything and everything you can, whether it's on market, it's off market, it doesn't matter. Zillow basically had an appetite to be number 1 and to pass Opendoor as the number 1 Ibuyer, and they try to do it in about a third of the time that Opendoor did it. And Opendoor has established strong foundational principles in data and pricing algorithms and stuff like that.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:24:58]:
They've been doing it 3 times as long. In the last quarter, Zillow acquired more homes than the previous 6 quarters combined. And so what really happened was Zillow just said, I don't care. Keep buying. Don't stop buying. We need to be number 1. It doesn't matter how much money we lose. And what I think really happened is you have shareholders that are seeing these massive losses.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:25:25]:
Right? And these properties that are just now sitting there because they just you you went out of control with the acquisitions that you you didn't have the infrastructure to be able to facilitate, whether it's the repairs or getting them on the market or the dispositions. The market started to slow down a little bit. You know, it softened up in June, July, more July. And all of a sudden now, these numbers are really, really hurting your quarterly earnings reports. And so, you know, what basically I think happened was there was a lot of pressure from, you know, shareholders and, you know, investors saying, wait, you guys run a wildly profitable company that you've dominated in a certain space of real estate or certain sector of real estate for the past decade. What are you doing? And I think they just got so much pressure from how much money they were losing on the Ibuyer side that I think ultimately they just said shut it down. Here's what's interesting though is I think they made a mistake by shutting it down. The the whole real estate game nowadays is all about ancillary revenue, and it's all about vertical integration.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:26:32]:
And Zillow essentially doesn't close the ecosystem off or the loop off by not offering an Ibuyer if you an iBuying solution. If you go to Opendoor, if you go to Offerpad, they offer lending services. They offer brokerage services. They offer title services. Now if you really want the instant offer and you're a user on Zillow's platform, which they have, you know, 100 of 1,000,000. Right? If they want the instant offer, they're leaving their ecosystem and going to Opendoor and Opendoor or or Offerpad or Redfin Now or whichever, iBuyer or FlashHouse. And what's interesting is Opendoor is now providing all of those other services that Zillow do. So they're losing that person in their ecosystem.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:27:17]:
They're going to another competitors, and are they gonna actually get that that that client back? And so I think that although it would have cost them a lot of money, I think that they actually would have if they were comfortable taking losses for probably the next 6 quarters, which they're large they're large losses, but I actually think they would have actually ended up coming out way ahead if they could just absorb, you know, the expense of doing so for the next year, year and a half. So it's just it's really interesting. I think that they just got a lot of pressure. People started seeing these numbers. And, you know, it's funny because when you say, you know, it was their what's what's interesting about iBuying is you look at top line revenue, and the acquisition of these assets are so expensive when people are seeing revenue of 1,000,000,000 of dollars. That's just the acquisition and disposition of the homes. The the gross profit margin is very thin. So versus you look at, like, agent services or selling ads to agents where they make the majority of their money, you know, that the profit margin is so large on that that the numbers, you know, the the the data, the numbers are a little bit misconstrued and a lot of times manipulated when people your top line revenue and how much Ibuying generates.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:28:32]:
It's really just that's the, the acquisition and disposition of real estate.

Jeffrey Stern [00:28:38]:
So in the iBuying space, like, talk me a little bit through competition. So so, like, usually, when you find this repeatable structure that can be scaled out to some degree and you're earning a nice rate of return, I would imagine it invites other people to do what you are doing. How much of what you've done is created competition? How much has been already there? And how do you think about that differentiation?

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:29:02]:
Here's what's funny is it's it's, it's a it's a hard business to get into. It's capital intensive. It's high risk. It's low margin. It takes time to establish credibility and to educate the consumer. But once you're in and once you are able to raise capital or debt, all of a sudden that opens up a lot of opportunities. Right? And so I think you look at Opendoor and you look at like, Opendoor, I keep referencing them because I think they're the kind of pioneer in space, and it's like they've been in Phoenix. That was their first market they ever went into 10 years ago roughly.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:29:39]:
They only have 7% market share in Phoenix, and they're the biggest that's their biggest market that, you know, it's like it just takes you know, you're acquiring 3, 4, or $500,000 assets. It it's not as easy as, you know, most most whether it's investor most investors don't like hardware anymore. You know, everyone likes software. Just what what are you gonna do with it? Where are you gonna store it? You know, it costs money to produce it. Right? Look at the expensive houses. Right? And so because it's so capital intensive, it slows down the growth. It slows down the entry point and it slows down the growth of a bunch of companies either completely dominating it or expanding or getting into it.

Jeffrey Stern [00:30:23]:
And, you know, I I think you you have kind of a unique perspective on this from both the Flash House and the the young team, you know, kinda combination. But do you feel there's competition from the old world? How how much of it is, like, from the traditional selling process versus other innovative tech forward companies?

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:30:44]:
Yeah. I mean, what's interest I think there's I think it it depends who you ask. If you're in the Midwest right now and you ask them about any of these prop tech companies that have raised 100 of 1,000,000, if not 1,000,000,000 of dollars to scale quick and to disrupt, they wouldn't think they're a threat at all, right? They just don't know about it. They're not in the Midwest yet. If you were to go to Phoenix or Dallas or Atlanta and you mentioned any one of these PropTech companies, they are concerned. You know, the traditional realtors are concerned. And I mean, I think that's why we really built what we built and involved flash outs to what we did is we kinda look like we're disrupting the disruptors. We're empowering the agents with all the tools that essentially are gonna beat them, and so we think that they still really have a place in the market.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:31:32]:
What's interesting is and this is why we're so excited about what we're doing. When you think about just this digital transformation and how it is disrupting the local realtor, I think it puts it kind of forces the consumer to make a decision. Do Do you wanna go with this traditional, you know, local trusted person that you've worked with before and that you have a relationship with? Or you wanna work with this cool company that provides this seamless process, and then you can do with a couple clicks of the button. And I think that, you know, unfortunately, it's a bad consumer experience to have to make a decision between 1 or the other, and that's really why we've, you know, kind of produced or evolved to what we are is now you can work with your local trusted realtor while getting this digital solution or this, you know, some of this optionality with the instant offer.

Jeffrey Stern [00:32:25]:
One of the the kinda tropes of the the industry as I understand it was always, you know, location, location, location. And I'm I'm kinda convinced often the variables for evaluating a given investment, you can typically boil it down to, like, 5 things that matter more than anything else. And so I I kinda picked up on this questionnaire idea that you have upfront in in the in the buying process for people kinda giving you some insight into to what they're what they're offering. But what are in your mind kind of those most important things when when you're evaluating these opportunities?

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:33:03]:
Yeah. I mean, I think location location location is is is by far number 1, and I think it's the it's the it's probably the easiest from a dataset standpoint to identify value off of it because you can just, you know, look at proximity to other comparables and, you know, you can see density of increased price or decreased price. I think, in my opinion, and this is what makes Ibuying so tricky and why we've had to invest so much into just our processes and, you know, the way we do everything. I think condition is what really alters value significantly. Right? And so just from wearing my realtor hat, not even my flash house hat, You know, when you have a wet basement that spooks a potential buyer or when you have a house that has all wallpaper or that has I don't know. Like, here's a here's a good example. We we were joking about this on a call the other day, internally in FlashHouse. You can paint a house, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you're improving it.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:34:08]:
Right? Like, you could paint you could paint you could paint your house red, and that might actually be detrimental to the value because now the buyer is gonna wanna paint it back to something more neutral. And so when you look at how much condition swings value, I think that's what makes it so tricky. If you're to go on any kind of county auditor or realtor.com or Zillow or whatever it is and just look at what they predict is the value of the home without knowing the condition, I think that's where they've really gotten in trouble with their kind of predictive AVMs. It's all based on just specifications, location, square footage, bedrooms, bathrooms. It doesn't take into account condition. So we've had to work really hard to focus on what is the condition of the property so that we can offer accordingly. And then also, there's a lot of decision whether we improve the condition after we acquire the property, and if so, how much how far do we go? You know? So I think that's really whether it's buyers looking to buy, whether it's us looking to acquire, whether it's us thinking about our selling strategy, I think condition is always the biggest driver. And just, you know, how does that affect value?

Jeffrey Stern [00:35:20]:
Building on that a little bit, when you think about kind of the business of FlashHouse, where is kind of the opportunity for growth that you see the most? Is it in geographic expansion, or is it in kind of those ancillary offerings that that you've been talking about so far?

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:35:37]:
Both by far. You have to do both. Right? Because if you don't do both, you're ultimate. Someone else will. And the the ancillary just naturally the ancillary is foolish not to. You you have to. That's that's really why people get into the business is the attachment rates when you have the consumer in your ecosystem and you can provide the most value to them in a completely, you know, well rounded experience from start to finish. The ancillary is such a no brainer because they have to use a title company when they sell their house or when we acquire it.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:36:14]:
You know, we have to use a title company when we go to sell it. The majority of buyers have to use a mortgage company when they get it. So it's like, why not use your mortgage? You have a captive audience that's sitting in your house that's buying the house from you. Why not use your mortgage company? So I think that's where the majority of of people get excited, especially in this PropTech space. They're not as concerned about the profitability on whatever their core competency is. They're excited about all the long term attachment opportunities. From an expansion standpoint, I think you have to show that this model is proven in multiple markets and diverse markets. I think as soon as you look at some of the iBuyers that have not got to the Midwest, as soon as they start proving their model in the Midwest or in the East Coast where you have Century Homes and different different styles architecturally and climate and stuff like that.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:37:05]:
I think as they expand or we expand to markets where there's REI buyers, I think now you have a true threat to whatever the industry is that you're expanding in. I think that if you can show that your model works in multiple markets, diverse markets, I think all of a sudden now you are taken extremely seriously. And by then, it's probably almost too late for any of the competition to even catch up or to create a defense strategy.

Jeffrey Stern [00:37:35]:
What does the future of home buying and selling look like if you can realize the vision that you have for the industry?

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:37:44]:
There's a digital transformation that has realtors still at the center of it. You know? I just I think there's a couple industries. I think you'll continue to see digital transformation, and it's just a matter of whose hands it gets into. But I think there's a couple industries, medicine, probably legal, real estate, a few others that are just such large emotional based decisions that I still think that people will be involved in the process for a very long time. I just think it's a matter of can we get them can they provide enough value outside of just being there to provide the emotional support or the guidance or, you know, the local knowledge or whatever it is? Can they provide enough value through technology or through simplicity or, you know, ease? And it's like for them for for for the consumer to value them being there for the emotional support. You know? There will be a point if the realtors or whatever industry can't compete at all with whatever the disruptors, you know, whatever the technology that they're using to disrupt this process or the this industry is, then I think they'll eventually be out of business. But I think that as long as they still have most of the tools that are being offered by the disruptors, I think they have a a place, you know, in the transaction for a very long time.

Jeffrey Stern [00:39:14]:
So kind of an empowerment of of the agents almost.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:39:18]:
Totally. That and I mean, that's what our mission is, to empower all realtors with an iBuying solution. And I I've just I've seen it, you know, it's so interesting to to see it from both sides, to see it from the traditional real estate side and then to see it from this disruption side. And it doesn't have to be you don't you know, I I constantly think of industries where, you know, they weave kind of in and out of centralization and decentralization, and it's like, you know, it keeps swinging back and forth. And, you know, when Zillow first started, it was all about transparency. You know, like Zillow said, the real estate industry is is is screwed because there's no transparency. No one knows what anything's worth. Everyone relies on whether it's the realtor that, you know, hold shows the value, and there's no transparency.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:40:06]:
Well, what Zillow ended up doing was saying, we're we have the most transparent platform. It's the best place to go to to to know everything about real estate. So then they started capturing a bunch of users or consumers on their platform, 1,000,000 and 1,000,000, and they said, how do we monetize this? So then what they started doing is basically selling those opportunities when people say, I wanna see this property to an agent who would wanna buy it. And now the consumer thinks that they're going to see it with the agent who's listing it is, and a random agent would go whoever is willing to buy the lead. So what started as a platform about transparency, all of a sudden turned into capitalizing through a non transparent way. And so I think now it's starting to shift back the other way because the consumer, it gets upset when all of a sudden they're like, who are you? And they're like, oh, we're a realtor. Zillow set us up with you. And they're like, but we didn't realize we were talking to you.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:40:55]:
And so I think it's just and now all of a sudden how our company is looking at that and saying, what's the solution to solve that problem? And it swings back the other way. And so I think you'll just kinda see this natural kind of weaving in and out of the the biggest companies getting disrupted, and then all of a sudden, the disruptors becoming huge, and then the next company is saying, we need to disrupt them. And so I just I for the past, you know, for the past decade or so, 15 years, I've been observing it. It's just like, I think that will always continue to happen.

Jeffrey Stern [00:41:26]:
I wanna take a a quick detour. You mentioned the the kinda the the cost of capital in the space is very high. It's not like a traditional software company where, you know, you get the 0 marginal cost on everything. So could you tell us a little bit about, like, financing, equity, debt? How how you've gone around, you know, bringing on the capital to to build the company?

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:41:51]:
Me and my partner are extremely fortunate. I mean, it's easy it's it's it's a lot easier to start a company and invest in it when you have income coming from an established other company. Right? So, both of us have been fortunate enough to do well with other businesses that it allowed us to invest a significant amount of our own money. And then, you know, from a capital side, once you can show first, we financed everything, put together a little bit of friends and family, you know, got a little bit scrappy, put together some lines of credit, established some lines with larger institutions, stuff like that. You know, once you start to show a proven model and you show consistency and profitability and you show that, you know, you have collateral to back it up and, you know, you have essentially an asset backed loan that you're you're taking out, it becomes a little bit easier. I remember at first, when we first started looking to raise debt, we thought it would be way easier, and we went kind of banked with banks that we had relationships with. And, you know, my my partner kept saying, he's like, this is a no brainer. Like, I've I've had a banking relationship with them forever.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:43:04]:
And, you know, they they pull a hard credit, you know, they do a hard credit pull and all of a sudden, like, they better give us money. I didn't realize they were, like, pulling our credit, and it's like he's like, yeah. It's a no brainer. Like, we've been banking with them, you know, a lot of healthy account. And they'd be like, unfortunately, you don't have enough you don't have enough of a, of a track record for us to lend you money on this. Right? And it's like, you know, what do you mean? And then then we go to the next one, and then they'd pull do a hard pull, and it's like, you know, I got, like, 4 or 5 hard pulls in, like, a month and my credit, you know, it's like, it's my baby. And it's like and and then finally, we started talking to a little bit more less conventional banks where it just it gave us a little bit of a safety net. And then, of course, then we started to get some traction, and then we had, you you know, a track record.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:43:46]:
And then all of a sudden, you know, what's funny is at first, you have to from the debt facility's family offices, you know, it's we're on their terms. Right? And you gotta do what you have to do. Luckily, we turned properties so quick that it's the the cost of capital is not crazy. But it's funny once you start, you know, you have multiple debt facilities that want to give us money, then all of a sudden how the leverage swings back the other way where, you know, all of a sudden, you know, money is so cheap right now where they they all want us to use their money. And so, you know, now we're at a place now we're in a really fortunate position where we we have access to more debt than really we need right now, but it's it's great to have because you just it's, you know, it's your it's your blood supply. Right? Like, if if if you run out of money, you're completely hamstrung. You can't acquire properties. And and that's one of the reasons why I think, like I said, when you talk about expansion and, you know, stuff like that, it's hard to do unless you have these massive warehouse lines, and that's when you're bringing in big venture capital and, you know, like, Opendoor $1,000,000,000 SoftBank backing.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:44:54]:
Like, you know, it starts to get very, very big and very macro quickly.

Jeffrey Stern [00:45:00]:
Yeah. Maybe before we we kinda bookend it with some reflections on your your entrepreneurial journey and and maybe even some some Cleveland real estate, where is FlashHouse today? And, you know, that that story you kinda told in the beginning, what have been some of those, like, personal outcomes that that you've seen and and and some of the the human element to this?

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:45:21]:
Yeah. I mean, Flash House today is in a really exciting place. We are in that place where things are about to get real wild. You know? And, for the past 3 years, you talk about, like, kind of the the the human elements, the emotional elements is For the past 3 years, you know, I've invested a lot of money into this. I believe in the theory of it and the thesis of it, and I I've invested all of my time into it, while also building another company. We're finally at that place where you're going to see, like, massive growth, large kind of PR opportunities for us, which is some of the things that we have going on, and it's exciting, you know, and it's been a grind. And the funny thing about it is that selling real estate and growing this big real estate team has been fun. I'd probably say it's it's most rewarding that I've had a lot of team members that I've helped that I've helped grow and groom and they're they've seen so much success as realtors and they've been with me for a long time and they, you know, they're all they all they all these great careers now and, you know, that's been really fun, and it's been fun to help all of our clients.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:46:34]:
You know, sold thousands of homes. FlashHouse is something it's just it's something it's it's almost hard to explain, but it's just it's so much bigger. You know? It's a challenging problem. It's it's it's a problem that's new. Right? It's it's not as easy as just there's 100 of you know, there's millions of realtors selling real estate. There's only a few people that are really playing in this iBuying space, and I can understand why now 3 years later because every time we thought we had it figured out, we, you know, got slapped in the face because we realized that we were so wrong and like that that idea was never gonna work. Right? And we're finally at a place now where we've where it's just it's becoming very exciting, and you know, there there's been times where I think you only especially with a start up, there's there's times where you only feel the pain, you know. It's like, am I ever is this ever going to be anything? Am I ever going to make money? Am I ever going to stop losing money? And I think it's just really exciting that we're at a place now where it's like I don't want to say we've made it because we're far from that, but we're at a place where we just we're starting to acknowledge that we have something huge in front of us, and we have a massive opportunity and that it's hard not to to get really excited about it.

Jeffrey Stern [00:47:52]:
Yeah. It's a it's a commendable place to be. It's it's very cool. It's a tough journey.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:47:57]:
It's a tough journey. And and a lot and a lot of people, what I think is what I think is amazing about the journey is a lot of people never get there to to just where we are right now, and we're looking to go to where very few people have ever been. Right? And we understand what's ahead and the the work and the commitment and the dedication and, you know, I I wouldn't have it any other way. It's it's become, you know, it's it's an addiction. It's passion. It's it's what fuels me and what it's just it's it's really exciting, and, you know, I'm excited to for you to see where we're at in a year or 2 from now, and it's like, we're just it's it's gonna be wild.

Jeffrey Stern [00:48:38]:
Yeah. You mentioned getting slapped in the the face a few times. What what are what are some of the lessons that that you've learned along the way here?

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:48:48]:
Yeah. I mean, I think it's, you know, we all of a sudden have a massive month. Right? And it's, like, from an acquisition, from a disposition, from a, you know, an inbound opportunity, whatever it may be, and we're like, here we go. This is what we've been waiting for. And then the next month, literally, the phones don't ring once. And it's like, I'm so confused. I thought we were we finally made it, you know? Or you have a team member that you bring someone on that you think is super talented, and maybe they just were the right person in the wrong place or, you know, and you you you think this person's gonna change the trajectory of the organization. Right? And and then they don't.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:49:29]:
And, you know, that that's a part of it. Right? Like, there there's all these things in business that it's just I think are very easy to get excited about before you have a large enough sample size or a proven model. And, you know, I think one of the things that I've it's not that I've become numb, but I think I've just learned that it's like we're we've still only been we haven't been doing this a long time. You know, we've really started I would say in the past maybe year and a half is when we really started to identify what the vision was and started building towards it. And so I think I've just become a little bit more seasoned and wise in my short year and a half of every day is going to be a new journey and, you know, the day before is gone, and can I improve just a little bit the next day? And, you know, so those are the type of things that I think a year and a half ago, I probably one day was on cloud 9, and the next day I was 6 feet below. And, you know, and I just I was on this emotional roller coaster, and now I think it's like I understand the vision. I understand the mid mission. I understand our our our strategy.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:50:37]:
I understand I I see 3 years out what this business looks like. There's a plan to get there, and it's just, you know, from, an operator standpoint, like, it's just we're just in such a different place, you know, and a lot of that helps, that we're getting such great guidance from, you know, people that you've talked to and that are really influential and it had been it's it's amazing how founders like to pour into other founders and just the wisdom that we've that I've seeked in. You know, I absorb it all. I just I I and hopefully, I hope one day I'm in a place. I think the the end game, what would make nothing more would make me exciting than for people to seek, you know, my guidance and my wisdom. And I would love to give it to people because I think, you know, that's been one of the biggest eye openers is how many people have shared with me and helped me get to where we are, you know.

Jeffrey Stern [00:51:33]:
Yeah. No. Absolutely. Everything you're saying resonates a lot. I've come to think of startup years is, like, dog years in terms of experience. You just, like, accumulate 7 years of Oh, for sure. This very compact timeline rolling with with the punches of, trying to build a company.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:51:52]:
Yeah. I it's it's that's but that's why we play the game though. And either if if you're if you don't have the stomach for it, the appetite for it, it's, it's not the right you know, you'll you'll be in and out in a heartbeat. And I just I've I've learned to take a lot of criticism and evolve from it and improve from it. And I've learned to take advice and guidance and just implement it. And that's and and I think there there can be no ego, you know, if there is I don't think you stand a chance.

Jeffrey Stern [00:52:22]:
Yeah. One of the things before we we kinda close out here was what you've have felt has been maybe the most transferable from your time as a as a chef into this world you find yourself in now?

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:52:34]:
Yeah. I mean, the funny thing about it is, when I was 18, all my friends were going to Ohio State and Indiana and Wisconsin and all these, you know, they're they're partying and they were I went to culinary school and, you know, we had a 6:30 am clean shaven. Your chef jacket had to be pressed and it taught me such a unique skill set of discipline and preparation and all these other things that it's like, it's amazing to look back at all of that and say, how much impact did did that have in who I am today? You know, and what would my life be like if I if I never did that, you know? And, you know, some of the chefs that I worked for just unbelievable minds and creativity and, how they approach things. And although, you know, this the the culinary world is not this, like, high margin, massive growth kind of world, the people that are in it are in it because they're passionate about it. And, you know, you you take some of that passion, combine it with the creativity and the work ethic, and you apply it to large addressable markets. And it's, like, it's it's wild just to think about the opportunities that are out there.

Jeffrey Stern [00:53:48]:
Yeah. So we'll we'll we'll tie it out, here in in Cleveland. It's interesting your perspective from the young luxury experience, like, maybe the pandemic has anecdotally for me at least seemed that it has had this impact on people moving to Cleveland and kind of this not just Cleveland, but this influx out of kind of the more dense populous cities around the country to to cities like Cleveland.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:54:13]:
But I

Jeffrey Stern [00:54:13]:
love to just get your perspective having both built Flash House and and as a realtor just on Cleveland real estate and and how how you're thinking about it and what what that looks

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:54:24]:
like. Yeah. So what's interesting about Cleveland Real Estate is it's, you know, it's kind of a hidden gem. The value is unbelievable. Over the past probably 3, 4, 5 years, there's been a lot of institutional money flocking to Cleveland, acquiring as much as they can because of just where the price points are and where, you know, money is so cheap. But I think, you know, Cleveland is it's a special place. When I was 18, I said, I'm never coming back. You know, and I went to culinary school in New York and I moved to Chicago and I lived in Vegas and I, you know, and all of a sudden, I'm 38 years old.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:55:02]:
I I live on the east side of Cleveland and got 2 kids and a wife and 2 dogs, and it's, like, you know, some acreage. And it's like, I couldn't imagine living anywhere else. And, you know, it's such it's such a special place, and it's so ease life is just so easy here. I am the biggest cheerleader for Northeast Ohio, not just because we sell it, but because I've seen so many people move here from these big cities and from these big markets where everything is such a rat race and and you you struggle to live to say you live in New York or in LA or in San Fran or whatever it is. And they get here, and their eyes just light up on the beauty and the simplicity and the elegance and the you know, and it's just all these things that it just it is very rare, I feel like, that we get people that move here that are like, I just can't wait to get out of here. And it's it's really cool. You know? And we and we get the and we hear it from them. And, you know, it's, the the people that do leave here, you know, sometimes you get transplants that come in and get out there, like, I'm so sad to leave.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:56:11]:
Like, this is it's just it's it's a great place to call home.

Jeffrey Stern [00:56:16]:
It is. It is. The closing question that I have for everyone is is for their favorite hidden gem in Cleveland. And no one's ever said Cleveland real estate before.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:56:25]:
Yeah. Cleveland real estate is a hidden gem. I it is. I mean, if you think about it, just the, you know, the the metro parks are obviously such, and I don't know if they're really hidden. But I I I would say the metro parks and really University Circle, I think that, you know, kind of that cultural arts district, if you weren't from here and all of a sudden you just got dropped off there, right, like just dropped off right in the middle by the art museum and, you know, Wade Oval and just in everything that's there. I just I think it's so architecturally stunning. I think that it's just special. I wish, you know, one of my biggest gripes with Cleveland is I wish that it was just a little bit accessible, you know, and there was a little bit more connectivity from, you know, that to the lake, to downtown, to the west side, to the heights.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:57:16]:
And it's like, I don't think people, myself included, take advantage of all of the amenities or the hidden gems as much as as we should just because of accessibility, you know, and that's yeah. I wish I was, in urban planning about a 100 years ago or something, and, I would have I I definitely would have would have, and it's it's one of those things that it's such a special area. You know, I I maybe get down there once a month, you know, to go to dinner or to kinda walk around, and it's like, every time I'm there, it's like, god, this is should be here every week, you know?

Jeffrey Stern [00:57:54]:
Yep. No. I I feel the same way. Well, Ryan, thank you so much for for coming on and and for sharing your story. And, I mean, it's it's pretty incredible how how Flash Houses has developed in the last few years. So really really appreciate.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:58:09]:
Yeah. I this was a treat. And like I said, you know, I love what you're doing for the city, and, it's amazing to see so many founders and talented people that are, you know, being cultivated here. And, I love that you're putting a spotlight on it. So I really appreciate you, you know, taking the time and having me on.

Jeffrey Stern [00:58:26]:
Absolutely. If folks have anything they would like to follow-up with you about, where is the the best place for them to to reach you, Ryan?

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:58:33]:
I think just on LinkedIn is is normally the best, you know, or Ryan at flash house dot com. You know, feel free to shoot me an email. We'd love to connect.

Jeffrey Stern [00:58:43]:
Awesome. Well, thank you, Ryan.

Ryan Young (Fello (Formerly FlashHouse)) [00:58:45]:
Love it. Thank you.

Jeffrey Stern [00:58:47]:
That's all for this week. Thank you for listening. We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's show, so if you have any feedback, please send over an email to jeffrey@layoftheland.f m, or find us on Twitter at podlayoftheland or @sternjefe, j e f e. If you or someone you know would make a good guest for our show, please reach out as well and let us know. And if you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or on your preferred podcast player. Your support goes a long way to help us spread the word and continue to bring the Cleveland founders and builders we love having on the show. We'll be back here next week at the same time to map more of the land.