#64: Rick Simmons (the telos institute)

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Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:00:00]:
It's not our hope that you see us as the source of your answers. It is in fact our hope that you see that you are the holder of the answers. All of the creativity, all of the insight, all of the ambition and intellect that you need to get to the other side, to achieve your goals and aspirations, resides within you and your team. Our role is to simply be a guiding, invitational, liberating component, lowercase, if you will, not uppercase, that we're going to give you those answers. We're going to, in a very lowercase way, come in that room, honor all the wisdom that exists in your team, help you locate it, relocate it, and deploy it for your betterment.

Jeffrey Stern [00:00:47]:
Let's discover the Cleveland entrepreneurial ecosystem. We are telling the stories of its entrepreneurs

Jeffrey Stern [00:00:55]:
Welcome to the Lay of the Land podcast, where we are exploring what people are building in Cleveland. I am your host, Jeffrey Stern. And today I had the absolute pleasure of speaking with Rick Simmons. Rick is an experienced coaching and consulting professional with more than a decade spent collaborating with leaders at the highest levels of organizations to optimize both their businesses and their lives. Currently, he serves as the CEO of the Telos Institute, a leading global organizational consulting firm he cofounded back in 2000 and 6. Telos offers specialized expertise to leaders and leadership teams around the world in the areas of business strategy leadership development and change management. In his role Rick is responsible for shaping the vision and guiding the strategic direction of the firm while inspiring a growing cohort of world class practitioners to deliver insight, growth, and transformational experiences for Telos clients. Prior to founding Telos, Rick spent 10 years in various senior strategy and sales leadership positions within the financial services industry.

Jeffrey Stern [00:02:02]:
Most notably he led several organizations through periods of transition which afforded him the opportunity to share his experience and insight in the best practices of personal and organizational change. We go quite deep in this conversation on topics spanning leadership personal betterment liminal spaces embracing disruption ultra marathons and much more. I very much enjoyed this one and I hope you all enjoy my conversation with Rick Simmons as well. So like I was just mentioning before we we turn the mic on in preparation for this conversation. I've come across a lot of topics in your universe of leadership and personal and and professional growth that I am very excited to unpack and and learn about and have personally spent a fair amount of time recently perusing literature in the space and, you know, proverbial management work and change industry prescriptions. And so like I said, selfishly, I've been looking forward to exploring these with you and, very much appreciate you coming on to talk about them and the work that you're doing, having founded the the Telus Institute. So thank you very much, Rick.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:03:17]:
Jeffrey, it's great to be here, and I appreciate what you're doing for the start up and entrepreneurial community. I think there's a lot of us grinding out there and and not always, spending time communicating with one another, and, yeah, you're helping make that happen. So I appreciate that.

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:32]:
Awesome. Well, I'd love to to start with what got you interested in in studying and in teaching leadership and and management. Yeah.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:03:42]:
I think it it goes back quite a ways, Jeffrey. When I was a a young boy, I I remember, you know, while I was cutting the grass or, doing whatever it is I was doing at the time, I found myself thinking about what what separated those that were good and those that were truly distinctive at something, anything, hitting a baseball, swinging a tennis racket. I remember clearly when Microsoft was incorporated in 1985, thinking to myself, what what was it about that business? Were they just, you know, did they just literally have a killer app better than everyone else's? Were there was it timing? Was it dumb luck? And so I guess in retrospect, I've just, my entire life, been really passionate and and curious about what separates those that are good or even great at something and those that are truly distinctive. I thought everyone grew up thinking about those things, and it was much later in life that I realized that some do, but not everybody does. But it was something that I was really curious about and and has been a lifelong journey in trying to answer that question.

Jeffrey Stern [00:04:51]:
And maybe we can just start with that before we kinda get into the work that you're doing. But but how do you define the best leaders and and what is leadership? Maybe just so we're all operating here with a common understanding for this conversation. What are the various components? What makes for the best leaders?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:05:09]:
Boy, that's, how much time do we have, today? Right? You know, what's interesting, a professional mentor of mine, a guy named Bob Hogan, he he and his wife created the the Hogan suite of of surveys, over 50 years ago, and those tools have been used, over that time frame. They were they were originally designed and built for employment selection purposes. But what Bob and and his wife realized about 20 years ago was that they're awfully good for development purposes as well. And so, you know, Bob's certainly an authority in the in the the world of of development and employment selection. And so, Bob talks a lot about the fact that leadership really started 1000 of years ago, you know, at a very fundamental level where, you know, the people in that side of the forest, liked our side of the forest better, and they were coming for us. And really survival was about appointing the person or the small set of people who could bring us together, and help us work together most efficiently and effectively on behalf of the betterment of us all. And I think that that not much has changed from that standpoint as it relates to leadership. Now today, it may not have life or death implications.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:06:37]:
In some ways, it does with if we're leading a military, and that's become more more relevant here even over the last few days. But but for the most part in our lives, it's really about identifying a clear end, an aspiration, and an ambition that's shared by most of us, if not all of us. It's about deploying resources in the direction of that end. It's about helping people understand that their piece in that equation has purpose, it has meaning, and holding us all accountable to moving that needle a little bit every day in that chosen and aspired direction. So I think it's really about identifying and engaging people in that aspiration, and holding us accountable to our progress in that chosen direction.

Jeffrey Stern [00:07:26]:
With that kind of context setting, and and thank you for for laying that out, maybe we can just start with an overview of what the TELUS Institute is and the work that you do and and maybe work backwards from there to understand how it came to be, and and then we can continue the conversation of of leadership.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:07:44]:
The Telos Institute, you know, at its core, a leading global organizational development firm. You know, we we play at at all levels of the system, and by that, Jeffrey, I mean, whether it be the individual leader, the leadership team, or even at the entire enterprise wide level. And it's it's typically in one of our three areas of domain or subject matter expertise. Strategy, as we define it, where do you wanna play and how are you going to win? Leadership, we talked a little bit about that. Oftentimes, it's in verticals or industries where individual subject matter experts, physicians, IT professionals, financial professionals, earned their stripes, moved their way up in an organization based on that subject matter expertise, but now they need to make a pivot to leading large groups of people, or even large groups of people who are leading large groups of people. So that's the leadership domain. And then the 3rd leg of that stool is really around change. And, you know, there's there's not a whole lot in this world that you can't accomplish.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:08:54]:
If you can get clear about where you're headed, you can engage people and equip people with the skills necessary to bring people along with you, and then express a degree of principled and practiced execution around change, like, when when you're charging towards something, it's gonna stir up a lot of dust in the system. It's gonna create a lot of churn. And if you're principled and practiced about managing that, there isn't much in this world you can't accomplish. So that's really the TELUS Institute, whether it's succession planning initiatives, large global change management initiatives, whether it's individual leadership coaching, whether it's team cohesion projects, anything from the individual leader to the full enterprise wide, and anything from strategy, leadership, and change, the intersection of those is where the Telus Institute does its work.

Jeffrey Stern [00:09:43]:
And tell us just a little bit about the the history of of the Telus Institute. What what was the founding insight that you have? When did it come to be? How do you actually start an organization like this?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:09:55]:
Yeah. So my my cofounder and spouse and partner in all ways, Amy Simmons, and and I are, Case Weatherhead, alums. And and during our master's program, there was a carve out, where we spent several weeks in the EU, and and our home base was in in Brussels. And, we traveled through the EU doing different projects as a part of our our graduate program. And during that experience, we experienced an accelerated period of learning and growth. And as we worked with our professors to understand what was happening, why were we experiencing this acceleration, One of our Belgian professors, our sister university there, very matter of factly explained that we were living and operating in a liminal space. And at that very moment, and both Amy and I can can remember the moment when that happened, we knew that there was a seed and a nugget that was going to, at some point, manifest itself in the TELUS Institute. We hadn't named the organization yet, but we knew we wanted to come back to the states, and we wanted to build an organization that provided these curated periods where people could accelerate their growth and development.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:11:10]:
And essentially, in that moment, the Telos Institute was born. It was a few months later where we officially sort of launched. But, in that moment, we knew we had been in that space, and we wanted to offer that space to others.

Jeffrey Stern [00:11:22]:
I love exploring what's in a name. What does Telos mean? And and I know there's a intentionality about the lowercase, if if if anyone listening looks you up, it's, you know, it's not a capital t. So what's the what's the story there?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:11:38]:
Yeah. It's so funny. When I see it inadvertently, with a capital t, it just feels so wrong, Jeffrey, and I'll explain why. But but, you know, telos is a word that was first used 25 100 years ago by Aristotle to mean with the end in mind. And if I may just tell a quick story about why that's so central to who we are, very early in our journey, I happened to find myself in the top floor of a Manhattan office tower at the height of the financial crisis, 2,007, 2008, and at a global fifty financial service organization. And truth be told, I had a very minor role in that room in that day, but the McKinsey consultants were there. The binders were flying, if you can kind of envision this, and, you know, it was a near near chaotic panic time for for certainly, on Wall Street. And I felt sort of urged to rise above the cacophony of that discussion, and I knew the CEO, the US CEO at the time, and I said, Martin, what the heck are you really trying to accomplish here? And and the room quieted and all eyes fell on myself and Martin.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:12:52]:
Again, I had a very minor role in this room, so why is this guy voicing anything at this point? And Martin looked to his left and looked to his right, looked down the long conference table at me, and with with love in his heart, he said, I don't know. And what happened in that moment, the vulnerability that he expressed, the honesty and the clarity that was brought to the room, for the next 60 minutes, everything about the conversation changed. It all began about rallying around Martin, and what we needed to accomplish, and defining that question. And it really in that moment, while I didn't have the name, following that experience, Amy and I wanted a word that would be emblematic of the crystallization that happened in that room, this fundamental question of what are we really trying to accomplish here? And it's often a question that we lead with when we come into the room, whether it be with a leader, a team, or an entire organization, and we wanted it to express that, and I think it does that. You asked about the lowercase too. I I'll just quickly say that when we do come in the room, Jeffrey, it's not our hope that you see us as the source of your answers. It is in fact our hope that you see that you are the holder of the answers. All of the creativity, all of the insight, all of the ambition and intellect that you need to get to the other side, to achieve your goals and aspirations, resides within you and your team.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:14:25]:
Our role is to simply be a guiding, invitational, liberating component, lowercase, if you will, not uppercase, that we're going to give you those answers. We're going to, in a very lowercase way, come in that room, honor all the wisdom that exists in your team, help you locate it, relocate it, and deploy it for your betterment.

Jeffrey Stern [00:14:48]:
You mentioned this concept of liminal space, before. What does that mean?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:14:55]:
Well, at Telos, we define liminal space as a period of discontinuity that creates an openness to change. I would say a disproportionate openness to change. It's these moments in time that we often can reflect on retrospectively, where we were too far into something to stop, but we were not far enough yet in to know how in the hell it was going to play out, these in between points, these threshold moments. And I think that historically we view them as challenging, but also accelerating in nature. They heighten our senses, they challenge us to rise up, they challenge us to get clear. And so we believe that these liminal spaces offer great potential. If we could just be a little more aware of when we're in them, we could turn them into present moment resources, not just resources as viewed historically.

Jeffrey Stern [00:16:02]:
How do you help those become aware that they are in a liminal space to embrace that disruption? And maybe just as a follow-up to the kind of impetus, the the founding story you mentioned, like, what does it mean to lead during a crisis? And how is that different when you're operating under this disruption and uncertainty that that is different than the status quo time?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:16:28]:
You know, there's there's some real benefits to to being in amidst a crisis if you're a leader. You know, there's there's an entire cottage industry built around creating crisis. John Kotter is a is a is a sort of an icon in the change industry whereby, you know, he will suggest that every new leader should should invent a crisis for the purpose of galvanizing focus for a team. So I think that, you know, leading amidst a crisis checks a box that wouldn't otherwise have to be attended to, which is a sense of focus and what needs to happen. Now I will also say that that the approach that's that's needed during a crisis versus a a calm water environment are also very different. If the boat's filling with water, Jeffrey, I'm not going to ask you politely, necessarily, to grab a bucket and start, you know, bailing water. I'm going to very clearly and maybe without as much tact ask you to do that, whereby if the if the seas are calm, I may take a different approach, and it might be necessary to do that. So I guess I would just say that, I think, situational leadership really comes into play here in understanding the degree of of clarity of what we're trying to accomplish and the necessary efficiency and and skillfulness that's required to engage our team to head in that direction.

Jeffrey Stern [00:17:53]:
What was the first big break that the TELUS Institute had as you were kind of galvanize this vision that you had for the the kind of philosophy and and principles and values, which which we'll talk more about in a bit. But how did you actually go about the creation of of the business component here?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:18:13]:
You know, it's really funny. I I remember we were we were months into this venture, and we had some friends over our house, and our younger children were out playing in the yard. And, the husband and wife were there, and the husband at the time was a Booz Allen consultant, and he was really excited about what we were doing. And at the very end of his commentary, he was like, oh, it's really cool. And yeah. And he's like, oh, it's gonna be really cool as long as there's a market for it. And, you know, you know, I went I went, I was an econ economics undergraduate major. And so I was not without the notion of a market and viability of those markets, and total available market, and things like that.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:18:55]:
But quite honestly, Jeffrey, I hadn't spent a lot of time fine tuning that. I just had this intuitive sense that what we wanted to deliver in the world, we had a gift that we wanted to give, and there was a market for it, but, you know, he really he really challenged me to to to get more to practice, more precise about how we were going to to grow our organization. And so but I I look back fondly on that discussion, because he really sent me into to turbocharge mode a bit. But we really focused on our next project. And as we obtained that next project, it became our obsession to do good work. And I know that sounds saccharine, and how the heck do you build an enterprise around that? How the heck do you use that as your flywheel? And I'm here to tell you, we built a business around that, and it became a flywheel, and we built irrational advocacy from people who we went all in on, leaders and teams and organizations who were trying to do the right things, and we were helping them in ways that we believed were were right. And, you know, that was many years ago, and many of those clients are still clients today. Many of those folks were CEOs of companies here in town.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:20:14]:
You talk about, you know, a break, we were we were doing individual coaching work, and and there was a public company here in town where we had done some coaching work with some of the senior leaders who had been in transition, and the CEO called a meeting and wanted to talk about the progress of those engagements, and they'd been real home runs. They'd really turned the corner on some of these leaders and and had tangible bottom line ramifications for the business, and he said, hey, I want to create a leadership academy, whereby every year, we're taking our top 25 future senior leaders and taking them through a developmental experience, much like what you've taken the 3 or 4 leaders you've coached to this point through, and make this the platform for developing future ready, ready now senior leaders. That was a watershed moment for us. We were just eating what we were killing, 1 at a time, up until that point, and he really saw how we could scale this up for the betterment of his organization, and certainly, it it benefited us as well.

Jeffrey Stern [00:21:20]:
I'm very interested to hear about maybe the the playbook that you have for what this looks like in practice. Right? Like, for with the end in mind, is there a certain requisite for personal betterment that people coming into the program need to have? Do you do you help folks understand what that end might be if they don't know and maybe just to really kind of paint a practical picture like what are some of the questions that you ask when you go in to calibrate where you are with a particular leader?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:21:52]:
So I'll I'll speak to that on 2 dimensions. When I'm in a room with, whether it be an organizational buyer, right, you know, the head of HR or the the COO of a company who who is looking for a mechanism or a platform to help accelerate his or her company's catapult forward. And if they're in an industry or in a business where leading matters, then we're off in a phone call to talk about what we might be able to do to be that mechanism. And in those situations, I typically ask 3 questions. And the 3 questions are pretty simple, but the first question is, you know, do you need help? And I mean that, and I use golf as an example, you know, at this point in my life, I probably need another golf lesson. Right? I I I'm an outing golfer now. I used to play a whole lot, but at this point in my life, our youngest just went off to college. If I'm gonna play some more golf, I could probably use a lesson or 2.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:22:53]:
Right? So do I need a lesson? I probably do. Do I want, question number 2, do I want help? And these are the questions I'm asking our prospects or clients. Do you want help? Well, lowering my handicap is not so important to me now in my life that I really want to show up at the range at 6:30 on Saturday morning and work on my game. So I have to really think long and hard. Do I want help? Does this organization want us showing up asking tough questions and challenging their leaders? And then the third question is, do you feel 100% confident that our organization is in the business and has the expertise to be of help to you and your organization? Do you need it? Do you want it? Are you a 100% confident that we can help you? If those 3 are yes, then I think there's a a sincerity about their desire to get better, wanna get better, invest the time to get better, and they need to feel confident that we can help them.

Jeffrey Stern [00:23:50]:
On the confidence building, how is it that that transpires before you've necessarily worked with these folks prior?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:24:00]:
Yeah. You know, I suppose it's back to the earlier part of our story. We're often a discrete introduction from another organization who has had up close experience with our work, how it works, how we do it, what the outcomes are. And so those kinds of introductions are really valuable to us, we take those seriously, and the people that we're introduced to take those seriously, as well. And so typically, we're coming into the room with a vote of confidence, with someone that matters to our buyer, having said, These guys get it, they know how to do this work, and you should listen to them. I'll often ask leaders, individual leaders, as we're assessing their own readiness, I will often ask them, and I ask myself this question regularly too, what do you believe? What do you believe that other people think is crazy? And I think it's a question that differentiates readiness for development, because I think you have to have spent a lot of time thinking about your industry or your business. You have to be willing to stand tall in the face of objection, and you have to be spending some time thinking about how the industry is going to be changing over time to source some things that you believe, or that you think and other people think is crazy. So it's a question I ask myself a lot, to stay sharp, but it's also a question I ask other leaders.

Jeffrey Stern [00:25:31]:
I may as well just ask you that that question if you thought about it. What what's what's in your mind on that one?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:25:39]:
Bold is better. And I think that that in many ways, we live in a world right now where we've all become very careful with one another. And and bold is not spelled the same as rude. Bold is not spelled the same as unappreciative. Bold is not spelled the same as rejecting others' beliefs, but I think that, we can be bold and be statesmen at the same time. And I think that, I think that bold is better, and I think we've we've come to a point in the world where some people would think that's crazy, and at the TELUS Institute, we do not.

Jeffrey Stern [00:26:15]:
So if as a prospective leader, I recognize flawed behavior that I I need help, I have come to terms that I I want help, and I believe that you can help me in this endeavor. What what happens next?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:26:34]:
Yeah. It's a good question. You know, and I think that when we work with, whether it be individual leaders or teams, I think it's wise to engage in a period of assessment. You know? We wouldn't be in those rooms. We're we're not what I would call, Jeffrey, a derailment firm. There are some of those firms out there where if all hope is lost, call ABC Company because they can come in and and, you know, curate a, you know, a turnaround. Not that we haven't done that work before, but, typically, our phone rings when somebody has an all star leader, and they wanna know what's next to help her get to the top of the organization. She is a CEO candidate in waiting.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:27:13]:
How do we help propel her to the top? And so I think the first step is really identifying what has been her formula for success to this point? What is it that works so distinctly well for her? And I think that's a good place to start in creating a development agenda, coupled with spending some time with her thinking about what's her vision for the future, personally and professionally. I think a period of reflecting, assessing, and envisioning is really the 3 step process that we would go through with that leader to help ground them in what's working, identify a vision for the future and where she wants to go personally and professionally, and creating a development agenda that helps get from here to there.

Jeffrey Stern [00:27:59]:
I'm I'm curious, having worked with what I'm hearing to be, like, mostly high aptitude people that have the capability of of making this change. As you've worked with with these people, what is the hardest behavior that you teach or offer to transfer to others? Kind of a pattern that that you've seen having worked with all these folks.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:28:24]:
Yeah. And and a specific story comes to mind too as it relates to that. We we did a project with a a manufacturing company here, and we did projects on on 5 continents last year or so in lots of different industries, but this one happened to be in Northeast Ohio. It's where Amy and I are from and where we raised our family. So we like to win our home games and do work here in in town, and this story sort of speaks to that. And and I think the concept is this idea that what got us here is unlikely to help get us there. The what got us here and what gets us there is often very different from engagement to engagement, but we had a specific situation with a company here in town, leadership team. This individual had come from General Electric, had very strong opinions on the way things should be done.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:29:10]:
He had been positioned as the new COO. And, in in beautifully so, we have him on camera, rolling his eyes at the kickoff meeting that we were conducting for for the first part of this engagement, and and he was a solid dissenter, about what we were doing and how we were doing it, and frankly, even why we were doing it. And fast forward, 6 months later, and when we set out solicitations for anyone that might want to, on camera, talk about the experience we went through. He was the 1st guy to raise his hand and wanted to be the 1st guy on camera to talk about how, the process had really changed him. And I think what he discovered was, what had gotten him here, autocratic leadership, going into his own office on his own and devising a strategy and a plan to go forward, etcetera, etcetera, were no longer the set of behaviors that were going to help him lead an entire organization as a chief operating officer. So he had to unlearn all of those old behaviors, and learn a whole set of new behaviors, and that's one of the toughest things that we do. How do you go to somebody who makes all the money in the world, who has spent 20 years succeeding beyond anyone's expectations, and you have to tell them, Stop doing that now, and you have to do this whole new set of things. And the graveyard of business and industry is filled with people who never make that pivot, But making that pivot allows for every successful chapter after that to happen, and that's one of the toughest things we do.

Jeffrey Stern [00:30:49]:
So again, I'll I'll throw that right back at you. How do you do that? How do you unlearn and and teach unlearning to those who have maybe been so successful because of the way that they have done things, and just that shift in perspective that has to happen.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:31:06]:
Yeah. I I think, you know, a a tenant that we that we lean on every day, Jeffrey, is that people are unwilling to change until they know what won't. And I think in that unlearning, relearning process, we're wise, whether we're helping someone else do it, or we're just doing it on our own, we're wise to start with what will be enduring. What are the things that won't change? We're often the 2nd firm in the door for large change management initiatives. And one of the things that we see often missed are that leaders and change organizations want to talk about bright, shiny new object, all the great stuff that's going to result from everything new that's happening. And we have found it more successful to start with, what's that long list of things that isn't going to change a bit? The values of the Telos Institute, the mission of ABC Company, or whatever organization we're working with, mission then we can start talking about the shorter list of things that might need to shift or get modified or adjusted. And once we're grounded, once we have that firm footing of what's enduring, as human beings, we're far more open to consider what might be different. So I think I think that's part of it.

Jeffrey Stern [00:32:31]:
And for those things that are foundational, the the values and and principles, of which I know you draw a distinction. I actually was curious how you think about the difference between values and principles. So I'll put that out there. But working towards when you've identified those and what typically remains, like, what are people actually changing when they have figured out what's not going to change? Is it typically, like, behavioral changes at at this point, or is it, like, the acquisition of new knowledge? What what are the actual things that that people are doing?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:33:05]:
Yeah. I'll I'll I'll give you an example. You know, one of the, this doesn't sell a lot of books. But if you get very, very intellectually honest about what distinguishes leading at the very top of a global organization, I was on a panel recently and somebody asked me, like, what does it take to be a great leader, you know, at a big global organization? You work with a lot of those people. And it's 2 things. It's surviving a political process, which is different at General Motors, than it is General Electric, that it is Boeing, that it is Amazon, completely different political environments, you have to survive a political process, number 1. Number 2, and central to your question, intellect, in a world that is more volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous than ever before, the ability to to digest and synthesize and make meaning of massive amounts of information is a differentiator of one's ability to lead well at the top of a global organization today. And so sitting with a leader or a prospective leader and helping them understand that their intellect is something that will always be important to their success.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:34:19]:
We're not going to ask them to over index emotional intelligence now to the suppression of their distinctive intellect. A lot of people think that that's the case. So just helping them understand that their intellect will always be a separator for them, and that approaches or ways of being might need to change or be modified, but things like that will always be true and part of their success.

Jeffrey Stern [00:34:46]:
I'll I'll circle back to to what won't change. How do you differentiate between principles and values, and and and what are those for for you and and for the for the Telos Institute?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:34:58]:
Yeah. I guess I'll I'll work backward there. I I think our values are important to us because we want them to embody a a way of being. We want it to be a guide for how you can show up on a daily basis. You know, we have 5 core values. The TELUS Institute, if I had to pick one of those, this is also one of the things that we think is true and that we believe that others might think is a little bit crazy, is that nurturing is probably the the single expression of a core value at the Telos Institute. Now on the surface, and I don't know any other organization who plants a flag on nurturing as one of its core values. I'm open to it.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:35:37]:
I've just never seen it before. And on the surface, nurturing sounds it even sounds kind of warm and gooey. But at Telos, there's two sides of the nurturing equation. There is the supportive, inspirational sense of belief in our clients and each other that we hope shows up on a daily basis. But there's also the right angled, more angular version of nurturing that is, if I believe Jeffrey can be great, I believe he's been given the tools and the resources to do that, and I believe he's committed to it, then as a colleague of yours, it's incumbent on me to hold you to that standard. And so having both sides of that equation of nurturing is what we hope allows our team to show up in a way that embodies that and and help us be more successful. And, you know, the other four values are very similar, but we hope those are guides for how people can show up on a daily basis.

Jeffrey Stern [00:36:31]:
And those in contrast to principles, which you also have explicitly outlined as an organization.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:36:39]:
Yeah. I think, you know, the distinction between those, I think principles are our banner headline for our foundational beliefs. You know, this idea that to be the world's leading global organizational development firm, There's a there's a a way station aspect to that that sets a daily ambition for us. It helps it it serves as a measuring card. Am I going to make decision a or decision b? Well, wait a minute. If we're we're not striving to be the 17th best organizational development for, wait a minute, if we're really planting a flag on being a leading, then I I need to make decision b and not decision a. And so I would I would probably distinguish principles from values, as values being a way of being and how we show up, and principles being a set of filters that we use to make decisions on behalf of the organization.

Jeffrey Stern [00:37:37]:
And I'll I'll just pull on on the thread of of one of those principles, which kinda caught my eye. What is uncommon promise? And how is that used as a filter in in helping you make those decisions?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:37:51]:
Yeah. It's it's adjacent to the earlier question, Jeffrey, about things that we believe that other people might think are crazy. Uncommon levels of commitment that we what we make to bring disruptive, pattern breaking experiences to the forefront for your development pattern. If we really believe that breaking pattern Human beings are pattern recognizing, mimicking machines. So one of the things that we need to do is break those patterns, create disruptive periods, productively disruptive periods, to help raise awareness, break old patterns, and create new ones. So if we believe that's true, we have to be uncommon in our level of commitment to infusing that into every single one of our engagements. And that's a little bit about our uncommon problems.

Jeffrey Stern [00:38:43]:
How from an accountability perspective do you think about the outcome and the impact that you're having? How how do you measure success?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:38:54]:
My graduate, thesis was the return of investment on executive level coaching in professional service organizations. So we used the legal profe we did coaching in the legal profession, the financial services space, management consulting, a couple of other professional service. I think I think search was in there as well. And so, you know, ROI is a big deal to us, and you you asked earlier, you know, like, how do you get into an engagement? The the one step I I failed to to mention is the very first discussion we have is, what does success look like, you know, to you in this situation? What does what what does your executive leadership team's ability to lead their teams more effectively? How does that manifest at ABC company? How does that how would that permeate XYZ Corporation? And so we have lots of examples about how and where that comes into play, but it's more important that our clients define it for themselves. I'll give you one example, if I may. We worked with a with a large kitchen and bath company, and they had new product development teams in 3 locations around the world, in the Philippines, outside Cleveland, Ohio, and in New York City. And so they were passing these projects around the globe pretty much continuously as they were creating new products. And at that point, from from ideation to hitting the shelves, it was about an 18 month process.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:40:23]:
And what we learned about this team, and the organization couldn't crack the code as to why they couldn't shorten the cycle time on, to new product development. What we realized is that none of these people had ever spent any time with each other in person, so we convened all of them in the Grand Canyon for 5 days. There was a period of preparation where they got to know each other before they ever met in person. They convened in the Canyon, we hiked them all the way down to the Colorado. They dipped their toe in. They they stayed overnight below the rim, hiked themselves out, and then there was a a follow-up period where they they they integrated what they learned and and built it into their team sustainably. And to this day, that project was 8 years ago. To this day, their new product development cycle is now less than a year long, so they cut by a third that new product development cycle, and it was a huge win for the organization.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:41:17]:
So that was how they define success there, that team's ability to be cohesive, to understand each other, to leverage the strengths on the team, not just the time zone, was an example of where they got a huge ROI, but it might be different for, you know, another organization.

Jeffrey Stern [00:41:34]:
How or do you think about competition? Like, what are the things as a business that that keep you up at night when you are operating the TELUS Institute?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:41:45]:
I wanna be thoughtful about my response there because I think it's hard to get something out of the trunk of your car, out of a spare bedroom, and and and turn it into a, you know, a living, breathing organization without having a certain amount of a sense of self. And so there is part of that lives within me, and so I do watch competition. I am very aware of those things, and I am proud of my colleagues and the work they do at the Telos Institute, period, end stop. And I know that doing good work never goes out of style. I know that the kind of work that we do is needed in lots of places, many, many, many more places than the Telos Institute itself could ever touch, and so I try to balance it with a sense of abundance. And if we can, in our client projects, leave it a little bit better than we found it, and create opportunities for others to do the same, everyone wins. On the

Jeffrey Stern [00:42:46]:
flip side of that coin, thinking more about the future, what is it most exciting to you on the on the horizon?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:42:53]:
I think, you know, one of the one of the this a little fun fact, Jeffrey. The the the real idea for the Telos Institute all the way back in in Belgium that I mentioned earlier, we were actually going to simply deliver an offering we call a Telos Leadership Venture, And these were outdoor experiential, much like I mentioned a few minutes ago, where we convened this new product development team in the Grand Canyon. We were going to take senior leaders to bucket list type destinations around the world, and use that outdoor classroom as a means to help them think more strategically, lead more effectively, manage change better. And that was really the singular idea for Tel, and then we got into coaching and global change management projects. But I think to answer your question, what I'm most excited about is, the pent up demand to get on trail, to get out of our offices, to get out of our spare bedrooms, where we've been working for the last 2 years, and reconnect with each other in a meaningful and substantive way, and that offering is built to that end, and I'm really excited about the opportunities we have to work with leaders and organizations who are ready to do that, see the value, and, I think it's gonna be a fun run here for the next few years.

Jeffrey Stern [00:44:15]:
I'll take a a slight detour building on that, run concept and, perhaps a more personal direction. But I wanted to ask you about ultra marathons. Very much in line with getting outside, out of the rooms we've been in over the last 2 years. But what what got you into those? And yeah, what you know, why? It's it's it's difficult enough to run. Ultra marathons are are pretty extraordinary.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:44:43]:
I think there's a special amount of psychosis that accompanies, someone that runs an ultramarathon. You know, Jeffrey, the real story here is is my mother had gone in for a she had a stint put in. And I was at the time working pre Telos Institute. I was I was working in other industry and and, you know, the proverbial 78 hours a week, and and I I literally remember showing up at the hospital to see her, and I didn't remember how I had gotten there. I don't remember driving there. You know, I was my mind was, captured with other things. I went in to see her, and she just looked so bad. She looked so pale, and and it was a real cold bucket of water moment for me.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:45:25]:
And I went out to the lobby of the hospital and I wrote 4 things down that I'd gotten so far away from. And one of those was, you know, I used to be an athlete. I played college baseball, and and I'd just gotten away from that. And I went out the next morning for a run, and, I'm just gonna run 2 miles, you know, before work, and I couldn't make it 2 miles. I walked the last half mile in, and I was so disappointed with myself. I was so confused as to how I'd gotten here, and I went out the next morning and I ran again, and I went about a quarter mile farther, and then I went out the next morning and I did the full 2 miles. And for the next 4 or 5 years, I just kept going a little bit farther. I ran Cleveland, ran the Cleveland marathon, and I didn't really hit the wall, And at that point, it became a mental endeavor.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:46:10]:
It was no longer a physical thing. You could do it. Most of the people listening to this could do it. I know it sounds unattainable, but, you know, you start running ultras when you stop being fast is what I say. So, you know, you just you just one foot in front of the other. But what it really became was a learning laboratory for me, because I can remember clearly being 16 hours into a 24 hour footrace, being too far I can't stop now, and I've got 8 hours to go, and you learn a lot about yourself, and how you react in those moments says a lot about how everything else afterward plays out. And I felt like that's the work I do, and I as a tactile learner, I wanted to be a real student of that place, and I feel like it helps me help leaders when they're 9 months into a 15 month product launch, and they can't stop now, and they're 20,000,000 over budget. Like, I know that place.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:47:08]:
I felt that place in my body, and that's the gift that ultra running gave to me.

Jeffrey Stern [00:47:14]:
Yeah. It's it's empathy of of the liminal spaces.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:47:18]:
Well, and and if I if I may, Jeffrey, I, in in our book unleashed, there's a section on this where one of the first 24 hour races I ran, I was I was 12 hours in, and and I was behind pace. It had been much hotter than planned, and, you know, you get really obsessive about these things. You know, you've got your diet, your hydration all dialed in, and there's people helping, you know, crew for you there, and and it just was not going according to plan. So, you know, I was in my head quite a bit, and they were asking me 5 questions every hour and capturing a little data, a little research around this. And, I came around for the 12 hour mark, again, behind pace, and the first question had been, you know, what's your goal? And for the first eleven responses, it was I was gonna go at least 24 hours and run, you know, a 100 miles minimum, and I was gonna run the full 24 and go at least a 100 miles. And when I came back for the 12 hour mark, they asked me, What's your goal? And in an out of body sort of way, I just said, to be okay with me no matter how far I go. I don't know where that response came from. I did not script this.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:48:27]:
I did not plan it. I said it, and I was like, what the hell was that? And the curious thing is that I then ran the next 12 hours faster than I ran the first 12, and I think that unlock was a really, really big part of that. I gave myself license to be okay with me. I loosened my grip, and everything changed after that.

Jeffrey Stern [00:48:51]:
I wanna bookend our our conversation here building on on that idea of of reflection and learnings, kind of thinking back on on your own journey, as you've helped others through their own. What are some of the the lessons that that really resonate with you having built the TELUS Institute over the last few years?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:49:12]:
Well, in this moment, I'm I'm, I'm reflecting for a moment about the power of questions, and I'm I'm feeling gratitude for the the thoughtfulness of your questions. I I we have long believed here that the questions we ask our clients are are a big part of the the unlock process. And, so I'm just in the moment feeling gratitude for the quality of your questions in this chat today. So so thank you for that, Jeffrey. And I guess I guess whether it relates to how how we've operated or how we've asked our clients to operate, I think I think there's this recipe of of confidence and humility, you know, this this confidence that we might be able to build something great here, but this humility in knowing that we cannot do it alone, and we need other bright, energetic, committed, passionate people to help us do this important work. And I I think that that's just a big part of this for me is is balancing that confidence and humility. And I think one without the other is a is just a is just a complete miss, but in tandem, it's a it's a powerful combination.

Jeffrey Stern [00:50:22]:
Well, I'll go, a full aside here, really outside the the bounds of what we've been talking about so far. But it's a question that, we ask everyone who who's come on the show so far, tying it back to Cleveland, which is not necessarily for your favorite thing in Cleveland, but for a hidden gem, something that others may not necessarily know about.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:50:45]:
Well, as I give myself a chance to to process that question, I will say, I mentioned that our our youngest daughter went off to university this fall, and we started a process about 3 years ago of determining whether we were gonna stay in Cleveland. Amy and I are both from the far west side of Cleveland and we live on the far east side of Cleveland now, and we went through a very thoughtful process of determining where we're gonna stay in Cleveland and did we want that to be home base. And, you know, the good news ending here is that we we very thoughtfully and deliberately chose to stay in Cleveland, as our home base and and really feeling really resolute about that choice for a lot of reasons. The people, the place itself, just a number of different different things. And I think I would say, to answer your question, you know, we live in Geauga County so far far east side, if you will. There are some outdoor spots, in our city, all all around town, for sure, but I think on the east side that are really just iconic. You wouldn't know if you were in Geauga County or or Colorado, really. And, so girdled road girdled road park, in Geauga County is a is a real gem and just a a beautiful place.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:51:57]:
And there's a a Lake Erie Metropark, called, The Bluffs out in, in Perry that many folks don't take the ride out to sea, and I would say that, it is also just a quiet, hidden, worthwhile trek and, and a real gem.

Jeffrey Stern [00:52:15]:
Definitely hope to check those out. Well, Rick, I I just wanna thank you, for coming on and for your introspection and and sharing your story here. I think the the work you do is is is very cool. And, I appreciate you coming on and and having this conversation.

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:52:32]:
Yeah. Well, I appreciate your time and, again, your thoughtful questions. And, you know, I think, this world and certainly our our community needs more conveners of good ideas and good conversation, and, glad to be a small part of it. And, you know, kudos to what you're doing here, Jeffrey.

Jeffrey Stern [00:52:48]:
Thank you, Rick. If folks have anything they would like to follow-up with you about, whether that be your book or the work you're doing at the TELUS Institute or or otherwise, ultramarathons. What is, the best way for them to do so?

Rick Simmons (the telos institute) [00:53:02]:
Yep. So the website's a a good spot, www.thetelosinstitute.com. You'll get access to, portals to our book, Unleashed, Harnessing the Power of Liminal Space, our podcast that's on all of your favorite listening platforms that's by the same title, Unleashed, and it's lots of other tools and tips and tricks on our website if you'd like to indulge. So thanks again.

Jeffrey Stern [00:53:25]:
Awesome. Thank you, Rick. Thanks, Jeffrey. That's all for this week. Thank you for listening. We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's show, so if you have any feedback, please send over an email to jeffrey@layoftheland.fm, or find us on Twitter at podlayoftheland or @sternjefe, j e f e. If you or someone you know would make a good guest for our show, please reach out as well and let us know. And if you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or on your preferred podcast player.

Jeffrey Stern [00:53:55]:
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