Graham Veysey & Fisk Biggar — founders of Graham+Fisk’s Wine-In-A-Can \\ Firehouse Can Co. — on building the first exclusive wine-in-a-can company!
Our conversation today is with Graham Veysey and Fisk Biggar — founders of Graham+Fisk’s Wine-In-A-Can.
Headquartered in the 1854 brick firehouse in Cleveland’s Hingetown enclave, their wine in a can is now distributed in over 40 U.S. States, Asia, and the Caribbean and has won numerous accolades including being named #16 on the Wine Enthusiast Magazine Top 100 Best Buy list.
Graham and Fisk are childhood pals who met 25 years ago at Camp Roosevelt on the Shores of Lake Erie. In 2015 Graham came to fisk with the idea to put wine in cans and the rest, which explore in our conversation today, is history!
Prior to founding and running Graham and Fisk’s wine in a can — Fisk was a member of the founding team for BB’s Kitchen in Aspen, CO, where he served as the General Manager — in 2011, “BB’s” was named as one of Colorado’s top restaurants by Esquire.
Meanwhile, Graham is also a neighborhood developer in Hingetown, where the company resides — he serves on the boards of the Cleveland Foundation and the Bidwell Foundation; he’s the Principal of North Water Productions – an Emmy-Award-winning production firm creating content for global brands, arts and cultural institutions, and political campaigns. Additionally, Graham consults for the Aspen Institute and is a contributing producer for the Aspen Ideas Festival and New Orleans book festival; a Contributor for Vanity Fair, and formerly was the project director for the Ohio City Farm, a six-acre urban farm here in Cleveland.
Graham and fisk have an incredible story and dynamic as friends and co-founders and certainly seem to have the most fun doing it together — please, find yourself a Graham+Fisk's Wine-In-A-Can, crack it open, and enjoy my conversation with Graham and Fisk!
--
Connect with Graham Veysey on LinkedIn
Connect with Fisk Biggar on LinkedIn
Follow Graham Veysey on Twitter: https://twitter.com/grahamveysey
Follow Graham+Fisk's Wine-In-A-Can on Twitter: https://twitter.com/grahamandfisk
Follow Graham+Fisk's Wine-In-A-Can on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/grahamandfiskwine/
Learn more about Graham+Fisk’s Wine-In-A-Can
--
Connect with Jeffrey Stern on LinkedIn
Follow Jeffrey Stern on Twitter @sternJefe
Follow Lay of The Land on Twitter @podlayoftheland
https://www.jeffreys.page/
--
Stay up to date on all Cleveland Startup and Entrepreneurship stories by signing up for Lay of The Land's weekly newsletter — sign up here.
Fisk Biggar [00:00:00]:
We were trying to go after that that white space, that opportunity where mine as in its current form, you know, wasn't available. And I think and then just our joy and ability to work with each other as friends. Like, let's do something together. Let's have fun. Let's let's do something where we can start the day with a cup of coffee and how we're gonna conquer the day and finish it with a can of wine and enjoy our lives working together. And I think that was the impetus for it. It was it's pretty simple. You know, 7 years later, we're doing it.
Fisk Biggar [00:00:31]:
It's been a lot of fun. We've had a lot of Canton and a lot of cup cups of coffee.
Jeffrey Stern [00:00:35]:
Let's discover the Cleveland entrepreneurial ecosystem. We are telling the stories of its entrepreneurs and those supporting them. Welcome to the Play of the Land podcast, where we are exploring what people are building in Cleveland. I am your host, Jeffrey Stern, and today, I had the real pleasure of speaking with the founders of Graham and Fisk's Wine in a Can, Graham Vesey and Fisk Bigger. Headquartered in the 18 54 Brick Firehouse in Cleveland's Hinch Town enclave, their wine in a can is now distributed in over 40 US states, Asia, and the Caribbean, and has won numerous accolades including being named number 16 on the Wine Enthusiast Magazine top 100 Best Buy list. Graham and Fisk are childhood pals who met 25 years ago at Camp Roosevelt on the shores of Lake Erie. And in 2015, Graham came to Fisk with the simple idea to put wine in cans, and the rest, which we will explore in our conversation today, is history. Prior to founding and running Graham and Fisk's wine in a can, Fisk was a member of the founding team for BB's Kitchen in Aspen, Colorado, where he served as the general manager.
Jeffrey Stern [00:01:47]:
In 2011, BB's was named as one of Colorado's top restaurants by Esquire. Meanwhile, Graham is also a neighborhood developer in Hingetown where the company resides. He serves on the boards of the Cleveland Foundation and the Bidwell Foundation. He is the principal of North Water Productions and Emmy Award winning production firm creating content for global brands arts and cultural institutions and political campaigns. And additionally Graham consults for the Aspen Institute and is a contributing producer for the Aspen Ideas Festival and New Orleans Book Festival a contributor for Vanity Fair and formerly was the project director for the Ohio City Farm a 6 acre urban farm here in Cleveland. Graham and Fisk have an incredible story and dynamic as friends and as co founders and certainly seem to have the most fun doing it together. So please find yourself a Graham and Fisk swine in a can, crack it open, and enjoy my conversation with Graham and Fisk. I think it's always particularly fun for me doing this podcast when I I come across things in the real world that I find to be awesome, and that I did not realize had their roots, history backing here in Cleveland, only to learn pretty recently what you've built.
Jeffrey Stern [00:03:09]:
You know, Graham and Fisk's wine in a can is precisely one of those findings for me. Something I came across in the wild and was like, wow, that is a very cool idea and it's well executed. And then to be made aware that it's it's origin story is just a few blocks from where I live in Ohio city in Cleveland is, is very exciting. So been looking forward, to hearing the story of how, you know, it actually all came together and and your guys' story as well. So thank you so much for for coming on today.
Graham Veysey [00:03:37]:
Jeffrey, thanks so much for having us. And the story really dates back over 30 years ago when Fisk and I first met at summer camp on the shores of Lake Erie. We usually tell people the Great Lakes because, you know, they're not necessarily geographically in the Lake Erie, but, you know, we went to Camp Roosevelt and Perry and have been the best of pals since. So it dates back, you know, not only to this part of Cleveland because we're headquartered in the Ohio City Firehouse, in the Hinge Town enclave of this great neighborhood. But, it really goes back to when we were in grade school and we caused trouble together when we were going to this outdoor camp, whether it was on a sailboat or hiking or horseback riding. And then we had different phases in our life that we always reconnected going to high school together, doing the college internship together, doing the post college mountain towns together. And then in the spring of 2014, I was renovating the old firehouse here and was covered in construction dust, went to the neighborhood bar for a drink. I was craving wine, wondered why isn't there wine in a can? They had all these craft beers in cans and I called Fisk up because he was finishing up business school.
Graham Veysey [00:04:51]:
I'm like, Fisk, what do you think about putting wine in a can and starting a canned wine company? He was like, sign me up.
Fisk Biggar [00:04:56]:
Yeah. So we got to work in the fall of 2,000 and 15. We had found a winemaker in California and started selling out of the back of a 1969 Colbert Ultra Band, store to store, bar to bar, hoping our way to make our hoping to make our way back to Cleveland. We we were entrepreneurs in the supply chain of the pet ballast industry. And, distribution is a hard thing to come by, but we were fortunate to have support back here. I think within about 6 months, we had a Ohio partner and we're able to to to get back into the, firehouse here.
Graham Veysey [00:05:31]:
And now 7 years later, you know, we really look at that year and a half of building and planning the company as crucial as some of the supply chain has squeezed. You know, those partnerships that we cultivated from April 2014 to when we put our first can out on the line, in late summer of 2015 are still partners of ours. We were first movers in the space with regards to putting awesome wine in a can and also developing proprietary blends. So we've got 4 different types. We've got a white wine with bubbles, a rose with bubbles, a red still, and a white still. And they're all deliberately non vintage and non varietal on the can, but we worked hard to have universal drinkability so that they could stand alone, but then also you'd be your everyday go to whether it's, you know, when you're barbecuing to when you just wanna literally not have to worry about washing any stemware. And where my background's in marketing and communications, if this came from the food and beverage world and worked at the Little Nell in Aspen, Colorado, which I think arguably could be one of the largest feeding grounds for Somalia's. And so when we first had this idea, if this reached out to his food and beverage network too and said, hey, guys.
Graham Veysey [00:06:54]:
What do you think?
Jeffrey Stern [00:06:56]:
And I I'm I mean, a lot of things I wanna ask about there, but, you know, one of them is what is the perception from, you know, your sommelier friends?
Fisk Biggar [00:07:04]:
We we ask a lot of what do you think in 2014 and 2015. A lot of the responses are you guys are crazy. But, you know, you fast forward now, it would and and it our theory at the time was that there was a dissociation happening between quality and packaging and that the wine industry was slow to adapt. And there's countless examples of that. We've all seen it whether it's just, you know, the synthetic corpse, the screw tops, the the box wine category. So and that's where we look at Canvas as an open opportunity for us. And so the response that we got was, you know, is there gonna be a marketplace for this? But what we held on to was we need to make awesome wine, and that will win them over. So when we got the product and I shipped it to them and I said, hey.
Fisk Biggar [00:07:50]:
Look. This is what we created. Try it. That's when they came back and said, oh, yeah. It's great. It's really cool. And so I think that's always been the, you know, the liquid to lift is Graham and I both sit here drinking a can of wine. You know, it's always been is open it up and try it and then you're gonna have that moment because what you're also gonna find is what the crap brewers found is that can's a better vessel for wine.
Fisk Biggar [00:08:16]:
Not all wine, most wine. 90% of wine is not meant to be aged and put in a cellar in a bottle. 90% of wine is meant to be drank within 6 months. And so if you have a can, which doesn't allow ultraviolet rays to go through and it doesn't allow oxygen to hit us, better seal, we've actually got a more stable product. And so I think over the last 7 years, as we've been telling that story and, you know, the message we're getting out and the industry's expanded, we've really seen, you know, the the adaptation around it and that, like, you know, can one can't be good mentality fade away.
Graham Veysey [00:08:51]:
And it's not just our friends that are telling us that. We've won 8 Best Buy Awards from Wine Enthusiast Magazine, which is either most coveted accolade because it's high caliber wine at a price that is achievable on a day to day basis. And then we were so psyched. We you took home number 16 on the top 100 list and it was we're the only canned wine on that list for the 2021 top 100 Best Buy Awards. And so it's something that we put on every can, so you've got the fact that Wine Enthusiast Magazine's given us the nod. But then the sommeliers that validate it. But then also, you know, Fisk was you mentioning the destabilizing factors for wine with light and oxygen. There's also just the portability of the ease of drinking out of a can if you're at Cedar Point or if you're at First Energy Stadium.
Graham Veysey [00:09:49]:
And so we've commonly gotten as we work to get into places, people say, oh, well, we don't have a huge wine program and we almost like hearing that as long as the folks are willing to try it because once we get offered to their consumers, people try it, then they have another one. I was getting my haircut yesterday at the barbershop and one of the chairs down the way said my mom had 5 of the Graham and his wife and at the Rod Stewart concert at Blossom. And had a blast and had so much fun that she called me, you know, both on her way home and then the next day seeing those guys have they're onto something. So it's that validation and Blossom is a great example and, you know, because this is the land and people know that venue. They did not move a lot of wine because if they were serving it with single serve, it was typically a low caliber juice. And when you're drinking out of either a crappy plastic cup or you're drinking out of a container that isn't a proven package like an aluminum can. Each of our cans are 8.4 ounces and we really are proud about the juice that we put in it. And I've always joked that we're kind of like the hair care for men.
Graham Veysey [00:11:09]:
Not only are we the founders, but we love drinking our product. And so, you know, we are folks that really want to make sure that the quality control is high because we fill our fridge with it. We share it with our friends. It's our names on every can. It's our dogs. It's either firehouse and the retro RV that Fiscuit alluded to. So it's very personal to us and it's a brand that we are really proud of having built the last 7 years.
Jeffrey Stern [00:11:37]:
So just going back to inception there for a sec. So you're you're at the local wait. Which bar are you at, by the way? Just curious.
Fisk Biggar [00:11:44]:
We're at
Graham Veysey [00:11:44]:
ABC Tavern down in 25th.
Jeffrey Stern [00:11:46]:
Amazing. Sure.
Graham Veysey [00:11:47]:
Yeah.
Jeffrey Stern [00:11:47]:
Yeah. And you're you're asking, why isn't there wine in a can? At this point when, when you, when you guys are, are ideating had historically, you know, worked together in an entrepreneurial capacity. Just kinda bouncing ideas off each other. Had you worked together before in as cofounders?
Graham Veysey [00:12:06]:
No. So this is the first thing that we've cofounded together, but we've always from grade school bounced ideas off of each other and it ranges from business ideas to what do you think of, you know, this person I wanna take out on a date to what do you think about going out and doing a summer in Washington DC. So I
Fisk Biggar [00:12:27]:
think I think the very first one was, you wanna try to sail to Canada? I don't think the camp counselors are watching. Yeah. Completely.
Jeffrey Stern [00:12:35]:
That's awesome. So I guess having bounced ideas off each other before, you know, why take this one seriously? How do you start to validate that? Why why isn't there wine in a can? What are what are the barriers to entry? Why why haven't people done this historically? Why is now the right time to to give it a shot?
Fisk Biggar [00:12:55]:
I think we we both saw the opportunity. I think for us, it clicked. And we and and we saw the use case. It was so simple. How great would this to be be to have at a baseball game? And and there is and and the fact that it was simple and obvious to us, made us think that there that it'd be simple and obvious to others and that was the white space we were we we saw. You know you talk a lot about disruption and we weren't trying to disrupt anything We were trying to go after that that white space, that opportunity where wine as in its current form, you know, wasn't available. And I think and then just our joy and ability to work with each other as friends. Like, let's do something together.
Fisk Biggar [00:13:41]:
Let's have fun. Let's let's do something where we can start the day with a cup of coffee and how we're gonna conquer the day and finish it with a can of wine and enjoy our lives working together. And I think that was the impetus for it. It was it's pretty simple. You know? 7 years later, we're doing it. It's been a lot of fun. We've had a lot of candle and a lot of cup cups of coffee.
Jeffrey Stern [00:14:01]:
As you're you're working through the the the inception of this, what in retrospect did you you guys find is, like, your first big break? That, like, okay. This is not just a a cool idea that we have, but we're on to something bigger here.
Graham Veysey [00:14:17]:
We got into the theater at the Ace Hotel in Downtown LA before we had the first liquid in a can. So that I think was a great motivator because we thought, okay, if we can do this many cases per month and all of a sudden, you know, the, beauty of taking this nationally, it it motivated us to realize that there's a there there. I also think there was a flip side of that where it was one of the easier sales that we've had, and we didn't realize how hard it would be to scale after a really strong first couple meetings. And so, you know, I think that that was a nice boost from a morale standpoint. It just wasn't necessarily something that we would have we we've not necessarily had that easy of a sale in the last 7 years. So it was a good thing, but it was also a little bit of a false peak if you if you want.
Jeffrey Stern [00:15:17]:
I really wanna do a a deep dive here on the kind of branding because I think most of us are familiar with, you know, walking into a wine store, being completely overwhelmed by, you know, the, the variety, the varietals, the geography, not, not necessarily knowing, you know, what it is that, that you're buying and there's all this very particular branding and it, it is in some ways tied to the tradition of, you know, wine has been done a certain way for the last you know, 100, 1000 of of years, and and there's there's a tried and true practice. How do you guys approach a novel packaging vehicle of of something that that has been in our culture and society in a particular way for so long?
Fisk Biggar [00:16:02]:
I think it goes back to our 1st year selling. What we realized is we were selling our story. Well, buyers were both pulled to buyers in the retail market, the people who control what goes on the shelves or in the stadiums. When, you know, to your point, we show up with this kinda atypical wine guys, t shirts and jeans, talking about canned wine. I'm talking about how we started it with an idea at the bar and an RV in in Berkeley, and now we're, you know, coming to blossom. And I think the, you know, it's this personal interaction that we were having and, we realized that the brand needed to be have that to be personal. And I and and so that's where Graham and Fisk came from was is that when we realized this is it's it's back again and I can repeat myself on simple. This is Graham and Fisk wine in Canada.
Fisk Biggar [00:16:55]:
That's where
Graham Veysey [00:16:56]:
it's helping. Think you're also getting the consumer who doesn't traditionally think of wine being in a can, seen it front and center. And so we have often said it's a little bit of Ben and Jerry's meets boxed water, you know, from a storytelling standpoint. And, you know, we've got our dogs in every can. We've got the firehouse that we're headquartered in, and we've got the 1969 Corvair Ultra V. And, you know, we really think that that passion of the for the brand and then that foundational in multi decade friendship really resonates both with the consumer and then from a b to b standpoint. The buyers that are the gatekeepers to get on the shelves in the grocery stores or in the concessionaires at the stadiums and arenas or on the menu at places that are serving our product on premise.
Jeffrey Stern [00:17:57]:
How how does, how do you think about competition? Is it is it, you know, traditional wine in a bottle is the competition? Is it, you know, it's the seltzer proliferation of the last few years? How you how you guys thought about the market broadly and and how you are are differentiating there?
Graham Veysey [00:18:17]:
I think our biggest nemesis is the old school mindset of a buyer. So our our competition isn't necessarily, oh, this other brand or this other category within the space. If for us, it's really as soon as we're able to get in front of the consumer, we know that there's pull through. And yet the challenge is more getting that shelf placement as entrepreneurs as opposed to a giant conglomerate wine house or liquor entity. And so we're not the corporate guys that have a 100 plus brands in their portfolio and 1,000 different sales people. So for us, it's really getting over that psychological hump that 2 guys that grew up in Cleveland that have awesome California wine that are put in a can, you have a product that people will buy. It's a real blue ocean in this space and I still think when you look at the pie chart or the bar graph of the growth of this category, it just still goes up and up.
Jeffrey Stern [00:19:27]:
And have you seen as blue ocean as it is, you know, others pick up on and run with the idea that that you guys are are running with as well?
Fisk Biggar [00:19:37]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think in, you know, you've seen others pick up. And I think to your point, you've seen this proliferation of RTDs, whether it's cocktails or seltzers, or canned spritzers. And I think the one thing is we've seen a lot of this come in the industry around the industry change is we still see our opportunity in the wine space. We know the story that we're telling and who we're going after hasn't changed. We're going after wine drinkers. And so, to Graham's point about a blue ocean, it really has been putting is, you know, putting the earphones on, drown out the noise because you got a lot of people, like, are you gonna make a seltzer? Are you gonna make a spritzer? What do you think about the cocktail space? Do you do Graham and Fizz, you know, vodka soda? And we really with wine in a can, you know, we know our lane.
Fisk Biggar [00:20:28]:
We're staying in it. And we know that they the opportunity is still there and we've gotta go after that and not get distracted. And for
Graham Veysey [00:20:35]:
folks that want to decipher the alphabet soup, RTD is ready to drink. Yeah. So the acronym R2D that fits through around. I don't expect everybody to know that it's ready to drink and we'll try to catch ourselves with some of those acronyms that are way very much inside baseball.
Fisk Biggar [00:20:54]:
Yeah. When we started in this space, Graham and I were on a phone call and someone threw, like, a very common industry acronym at us. And we were on a Google chat with each other. I'll never forget this. And we, like, we're, like, o n d question? We're, like, oh, yeah.
Graham Veysey [00:21:06]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was
Fisk Biggar [00:21:07]:
trying to remember what it was. It was o n d.
Graham Veysey [00:21:09]:
And we're, like, what is o n d? And everybody's talking about
Fisk Biggar [00:21:12]:
I'm really talking about this o and d.
Graham Veysey [00:21:13]:
It is October, November, December. It's a it's a I don't care that in the alcohol space, it overwhelms every other conversation that's happening. But it's, oh, it's OND OND because a huge number
Fisk Biggar [00:21:29]:
Yeah. Like 60% of all alcohols consumed in those 3 months of the year. It's great.
Graham Veysey [00:21:33]:
That that's is it we don't know if that's exactly 60%.
Fisk Biggar [00:21:37]:
Yeah. Are we fact checking this?
Graham Veysey [00:21:38]:
Well, I'm just making sure that you said that with great authority. And I'm like, it's a lot
Jeffrey Stern [00:21:44]:
of lot
Graham Veysey [00:21:44]:
of the yearly consumption happens in OND.
Fisk Biggar [00:21:48]:
So Don't or, yeah, don't fact check it, but there's a lot. Don't fact check that.
Jeffrey Stern [00:21:54]:
Where is that one conversation here? On that thread though, I, you know, I imagine a a huge learning curve with this over time. And, you know, what what have you found to be people's, you know, misconceptions about about wine, about what it is you're doing, things that have kinda surprised you about, the the industry that of wine?
Graham Veysey [00:22:15]:
Wow. I think how cutthroat people are. Like, you know, we're just 2 guys that wanna have a good time and, yeah, you know, we would get stabbed in the chest if some of these brands would have their way with us. But we are optimists. We have seen the consumers react to our brand. We didn't realize how much of a David and Goliath game it was. And I think that's probably some naivety that was good to have or else we wouldn't have gotten into this industry. And yet at the end of the day, it goes back to Fisk's point of, you know, 2 pals that are working towards this shared goal and we've got a great team that helps us get there and our truth is real and we know that once we have our product on a menu or on a shelf, it will move.
Graham Veysey [00:23:09]:
And so that's really just always our challenge is getting that product placed in our brand on the shelf and then then we're high fiving each other.
Jeffrey Stern [00:23:18]:
It sounds like maybe this wasn't necessarily the case, but I would imagine, you know, the proof in the pudding as you guys are are growing and and moving more wine in a can over time, the the the pitch, the sell becomes easier in some capacities. But,
Fisk Biggar [00:23:31]:
You know, yes and no. I think for as you grow this yes. The, you know, the the space is gotten easier. It's more accepted. We aren't walking in saying, hey, we're guys with can of wine and immediately getting shut down like we used to. But at the same time too, we're working with there's certain levels of dynamics. There's, you know, Ohio City Brewster. Great store.
Fisk Biggar [00:23:55]:
You can talk to the owner right there versus the Giant Eagles and the, you know, we've sold Dave and Buster's. Like, those are big decision makers that are hard to get to that, take years of relationships that were being part of this industry for a long time. Like, you know, Graham and I certainly didn't have 7 years ago and that we've had to earn along the way.
Graham Veysey [00:24:18]:
And then we're still earning. I think that Yeah. Yeah. The other part is we would get so bummed about, placement and then it not getting renewed not because people weren't buying it, but because there's another sparkly object from, you know, a neighborhood bar or a neighborhood liquor store. And yet we then came to realize the transaction effort for a place like that is almost as much as the transaction effort for a Dave and Busters or a Quaker stake and loop or a Applebee's franchise that owns 60 plus units. So we started to focus our attention to those whales and not get bogged down by, oh, it'd be great to have it in these different stores, but the effort to do that is almost as much as the effort to get a multi unit deal done. So it's stuff that we've definitely learned through the years and emotionally been able to be okay with those placements sunsetting. And and then it's surprising somebody will reach out and say, oh, yeah.
Graham Veysey [00:25:33]:
We'd love to have you guys on our shelves again. We said, great. But we're not gonna lose sleep over it.
Fisk Biggar [00:25:39]:
The emotional check's hard. That one's because you walk into a place that you know and you love and you're like, god, why aren't we sold here right now? And you're like, I should take the time and energy and you're like, no. I shouldn't. I've gotta focus on what Brandon said to, you know, it's okay. I'll still come and enjoy this place, but this isn't going to be the thing for us. Like, we've gotta kinda create that groundswell.
Jeffrey Stern [00:26:02]:
Yeah. I mean, focus seems clear to be the theme here. Right? It's a small small product offering, targeted market.
Fisk Biggar [00:26:11]:
Focus and tenacity. Yes. Hustle. You gotta follow-up is key. I mean, follow-up, follow-up, follow-up. I mean, I think the one things that we've built a reputation for, in a in a positive way across the industry is we've made a name for ourselves, with, you know, what I would say in this in this landscape of, you know, your traditional buying set is, like, those are the guys who will work harder than anyone else. They're gonna follow-up on everything that they say they'll do, and they're relentlessly passionate about it. So I think as long as we do those things, we should be successful.
Jeffrey Stern [00:26:51]:
On the grape side of this equation before it becomes in a can, Was there a process to, like, find the right, you know, blend balance? How did you how did you figure, you know, this is the the flavor profile we want, working with the growers and and that whole the whole process?
Graham Veysey [00:27:12]:
Beauty is we liked to drink before we founded this company. So we had a great baseline, and we had developed palates.
Fisk Biggar [00:27:20]:
The intolerance. Intolerance.
Graham Veysey [00:27:23]:
So we did do an exhaustive search of different winemakers in wine country out in California. We felt like it was important to have a California wine. We interviewed a bunch of folks and this guy named John who's been in the industry for decades. He syncopated with our philosophy and ethos and got what we're trying to do. We understood the fact that the blend also needed to be unique because you're drinking out of a can. And your listeners can't see me, Jeffrey, but when you put your nose when you're drinking it out of a can, it's not going into the stemware like you'd be drinking if it was bottled juice.
Jeffrey Stern [00:28:09]:
Right. You can't do the swirl and
Graham Veysey [00:28:11]:
the Yeah.
Fisk Biggar [00:28:12]:
You're not doing the swirl.
Graham Veysey [00:28:13]:
You you've gotta have blends that work without your nose being shoved into a stemware. So we tried a ton of different types and they're all blends. Again It's a fun process. Yeah. It's a fun process. And we charged John with making blends that he could replicate by and large year after year regardless of the harvest. So, you know, if say, you know, the Chardonnay had a bad harvest, like, just like your craft beer, you don't know if there was a bad hops harvest or if there is a barley infestation, whatever it was, you just go to the next farm. And so, you know, from our perspective, you know, the vineyard isn't as important as the blend at the end.
Graham Veysey [00:29:06]:
And so to make sure that John's able to pull from various vineyards, pull from various varietals, and get that universal drinkability, that's consistent can after can, year after year. And he was able to do it and to his credit, 7 years into it, you could really put a blindfold on and try various can runs that we've done. And there's that consistency that we think people really appreciate.
Jeffrey Stern [00:29:37]:
And and so even with the the intense focus, you know, I imagine at one point it didn't start with, you know, bubbles necessarily as an offering. Of the things you can work on and choose to focus on when you think about product expansion, not to ask the question that you say that everyone asks you and you're like, we have to focus. But, you know, obviously, you're weighing different opportunities. At what point does it make sense for for you guys to to take one seriously? And how did you, I guess, first make that decision to to do an expansion?
Fisk Biggar [00:30:08]:
I think with Graham and I, when we both look at each other and nod our heads at the same time,
Graham Veysey [00:30:13]:
I think
Fisk Biggar [00:30:13]:
it's I think it's that simple. I think it's like like, there's been ideas he's had that I don't love or certainly ones that I've had that he doesn't love. And, like, as soon as we're kinda, like, in that dance, you know it's just not gonna do the thing. And we have to both be excited about it. I think well, bubbles was a good example of that on the white. Rose, I think, is was the next example. And then rose with bubbles. And I think and then, you know, the smaller 250 milliliter can.
Fisk Biggar [00:30:38]:
So I I think when we kind of say, hey. Listen. We're staying in this lane. That doesn't mean we're not innovate or or aren't willing to be innovative. We're innovate. That's how we got here. And, you know, we have to think and act in a forward looking manner. We have to go to where the puck's gonna be.
Fisk Biggar [00:30:53]:
So, you know, I think for us, it's really in our in our dialogue, where do we think the puck's gonna be, and how do we get there together, and what is gonna make us excited about it? And so I think when it's there, you just know it. It's there. It's just what we're gonna do. It's a short conversation. When it's not there, it's a long conversation. Yeah. I think that is, you know, the r and d process for us, I think, in certain ways is, you know, do we are we both really excited about this idea? And if we are, we'll go do it. And some of them work and some of them don't.
Fisk Biggar [00:31:26]:
We've got, you know, probably some things that are Googleable that, you know, we do but that's the whole point. That's it. But either way, it's fucked.
Graham Veysey [00:31:34]:
And it's got yeah. It's it's gotta be that mutual head nod and it's gotta stick. So it's not one night of ideation and the next day we're definitely gonna do it. It's making sure we talk through it and it's not something that fades in a few days, but we're excited about it. Because when we do a new SKU, it is a year's commitment. Not like 1 year, but, like, multiple years commitment on it based on what we need to do from a supply chain standpoint, the effort to put into it. So it's nothing that we ever take lightly.
Jeffrey Stern [00:32:13]:
When you don't have that mutual head nod, you know, how how is it that you guys, deal with disagreements between each other? Sometimes, you know, in the in the many cofounder situations, I I've seen, you know, the the friends, becoming cofounders. It can be complicated at times. How have you guys kinda work work through that.
Graham Veysey [00:32:32]:
We just talked through it. We get in a room we get in this room most of the time. Yeah.
Fisk Biggar [00:32:37]:
It's like a conference room.
Graham Veysey [00:32:38]:
It's the old showers that the firemen used to use, like the shared shower. So now it's a conference room with the a cart table from the Richmond Brothers factory. But we sit in here and we put the positives in the deltas and the whiteboard that's right there. And, you know, we talk through it. And there haven't been occasions that I can think of where those conversations haven't gotten us to a consensus. So
Jeffrey Stern [00:33:09]:
Yeah. Maybe I'll I'll I'll take the the detour to to the firehouse because I
Graham Veysey [00:33:13]:
Yeah. I think it probably helps that, you know, cans of wine are involved. So so, you know, it it kind of any edge gets smooth over
Jeffrey Stern [00:33:25]:
the longer, you
Graham Veysey [00:33:25]:
know, we have those discussions. But no But
Fisk Biggar [00:33:27]:
I I also think too in those conversations when you're having those and I think it's just a a conversation with any partner, is at the end of this conversation or at
Graham Veysey [00:33:37]:
the end
Fisk Biggar [00:33:38]:
of this, we gotta walk out of this room as partners. And so, like Mhmm. Even if the whiteboard says, hey. We you know, we're at different spots on this. Like, alright. Well, you wanna go get a can of wine? And Right. The answer is yes. And I think that's, you know, it's yeah.
Fisk Biggar [00:33:54]:
Of course, there have been, you know, moments where where we have those conversations. If they're few and far between and they're, you know, I think it's it's it's a function of a healthy relationship, just to be able to know how you're gonna work through it. Just come in here. Let's have a can of wine and get
Jeffrey Stern [00:34:08]:
it done. When you think about you you mentioned where the puck is going analogy. How far out are you guys thinking? Like, is there do you have a vision for, you know, world domination by wine in a can, you know, 10 years from now and working backwards from there. How are you approaching the, I guess, in retrospect, the the impact, the the what you wanna do with this company?
Graham Veysey [00:34:30]:
I always tell folks that reach out and ask about entrepreneurial endeavors is that you're driving really fast and there's always a cliff on the horizon. In some days, you're driving closer to the cliff and some days the cliff's farther out from view, but it's always there. And so I think that from a nuts and bolts standpoint, it's always what's your sales velocity and what's your runway in terms of working capital to make sure that the ship's staying afloat. So, you know, for us, it's very cyclical. You know, Fisk mentioned OND and we talked about it. You know, we have to have a certain amount of inventory to keep up, you know, with sales demand. So those are all factors that are constant. You know, we get, you know, a phone call and sometimes, you know, we need to ratchet up production tenfold to fulfill a particular request.
Graham Veysey [00:35:32]:
And so I think that was always though our strategy from day 0 was how do we make sure that our model is as scalable as possible and making sure that we never felt like, you know, we needed to okay. Well, it's only in year 4 that we'll go above 10,000 cases. It's like, no. We like, we are in a growth mindset all the time. Yeah. I think that we've, you know, evolved in terms of how we see that growth. Is it only in cans of wine? Is it only in, you know, certain types of lenses with regards to EBITDA? Is it only in terms of reorders? That fluctuates, but at the end of the day, there's a sign that hangs behind Fisk's desk and it says move more cans. And that was a conversation very early on that we had about what's our mission and that move more cans.
Graham Veysey [00:36:38]:
It's true from a forecasting standpoint 5 years out to today when we go through a list of hot sales prospects or people that we need to reorder, you know, we're emailing them, we're picking up the phone and calling them, and we're rabid about moving more cans.
Jeffrey Stern [00:36:59]:
What what has you guys most excited looking forward over the next, you know, year, call it?
Fisk Biggar [00:37:05]:
Wow. I think over the next year, it's you know, over the last year, we've expanded our distribution now to 43 states across the US. And we've come out of, you know, coming out of this pandemic period, which I know we're certainly still in a pandemic. But the I'm I'd say that a behavioral mindset, you know, our business shifted a 180 degrees twice in the last 12 months. And I think what it did for us was we learned about different verticals for our business. And we're coming out of it now saying we've got 3 really we've got 3 verticals to this business. We have their direct to consumer, which was there for the the deep pandemic period and was there for a full year. Now we've got retail coming back, both on and off premise and those count as 2 verticals.
Fisk Biggar [00:37:56]:
So what we've done over the last year is we've seen those stabilize and and seeing the retail start to grow and and also retaining and growing direct to consumer. So I think over the next 12 to 18 months is with is really being hopeful in the fact that we can that we in this macro environment have this kind of stable environment that we can continue to to strategize against. So I think it's a little bit short term, but it it gives us you know, for the first time, we can sit back in a room. You know, we all lit our hair on fire 2 years ago and, have been figuring it out. I think for the first time, we're really back in a room saying, okay. Here is the new environment. Here's what the long term looks like. Because everything changed on a dime, a few years ago, and and and so it's nice to plan again.
Jeffrey Stern [00:38:43]:
Do you is there a certain staying power, you think, to the direct to consumer part of this that that did blow up over the pandemic and maybe is normalized now? But is that there to stay?
Fisk Biggar [00:38:54]:
Yes. Very much so. Yeah.
Graham Veysey [00:38:56]:
I think there's a real contraction with the 5 minute delivery convenience play. I think people are more willing to say, alright. Yeah. If I, you know, craving Swedish fish, or a, you know, 6 pack, like, I'm gonna walk a couple blocks to grab it and, you know, get home. Like, I I don't need to be glued to the couch. We see that with, you know, certain entities that are in steep decline with regards to that convenience factor. But I think from a DTC standpoint, anybody who's had the patience and they'll they'll continue to have that patience for a 2 or 3 day delivery via FedEx. And we love FedEx.
Graham Veysey [00:39:47]:
We were a 2020 2020, FedEx small business grant winner. They've been great to us and we, you know, have continued to grow with them and you definitely love those sorts of partners and they've been good to us. So, that ability to have our product shipped right to your door, you being able to track it from the moment it leaves our warehouse to when it's at a sorting facility, to when it's on the truck, to when it's on your front porch. Like, that's something that I think consumers will not only maintain but grow from an appetite standpoint.
Jeffrey Stern [00:40:28]:
Is there anything that keeps you guys up at night? You know, what are what are the parts that are are most challenging, you know, right now? Maybe the any yeah. What what has you guys concerned, if anything?
Graham Veysey [00:40:39]:
My son, keeps him up at night, and my toddler daughter keeps me up at night. So, no. I I think we sleep really well knowing that we've got a great truth and a baseline that when we get up in the morning and we have our really delicious cup of Rising Star Coffee, we then can start to sell our brand to people and share that affinity we have that's very genuine and authentic.
Jeffrey Stern [00:41:08]:
Is, just, you know, on the on the rising star front, has the you know, I I know you've had a part in this as well, but is, like, the development of Hinge Town and and kind of the the progress that's been made there, is there any relationship to, you know, the business, of of Graham and Fisk's wine in a can, or have you just kinda thought about those separately? Like, is there I I realized the company is mostly, like, I don't know. Have you thought about opening a a wine in a can store in Hingetown? Yeah. That's that's really
Fisk Biggar [00:41:41]:
a question. You were that would be one of those aforementioned, whiteboard conversations.
Graham Veysey [00:41:48]:
Yeah. They always set up. So yeah. We we have thought about doing a canned cafe or a bar that's focused, you know, all on ready to drinks. You know, for us, it goes back to that staying in the lane and Yeah. The distraction to do that with the importance of growing these national accounts that are really the crux of our business. It it would be a lot of fun but it would be a distraction to our core business. But I think that, you know, what we have done that is directly involved with the neighborhood work is, you know, pop ups in the summertime and teaming up, you know, be it the Stonewall athletic folks that were in town, just a few weeks ago.
Graham Veysey [00:42:38]:
Yeah. There was a ton of rose with bubbles flowing at that event, outside of ChuteBox and between the transformer station. So, you know, we love that kind of collaboration with our neighbors. You know, we're in the volleyball league that takes place next door. You know, we'll you make sure that, you know, we team up with the LGBT Center and Phyllis who's amazing to do a fundraiser during June with our pride boxes. So there's a long list that is very civic oriented, be it Fisk being part of the bridge builders class of leadership Cleveland to, you know, the various boards that you were on. We care deeply about this place, and I think that's, you know, what the seed of Hingetown was. And, you know, from an entrepreneurial standpoint, it's all about being rabid about taking an idea and turning it into action.
Jeffrey Stern [00:43:35]:
What what does the the company, actually look like in Cleveland? You know, how many how many folks are there, and how how does that look?
Graham Veysey [00:43:42]:
And you think about the old firehouse, you think about the fact that there's a bunk room, that is where the firemen used to sleep. And so we've got a half a dozen teammates that fill that bunk room where firemen slept for years years and it still has 2 of the poles in there and we've got a ton of canned wine. We've got 2 coolers filled with our awesome wine in a can. We've got a froze machine that gets kicked up, you know,
Fisk Biggar [00:44:12]:
every Friday. What's going on tomorrow?
Graham Veysey [00:44:14]:
It's going on tomorrow. So, you know, it it's a mighty team, that has touch points all over the place. So we'll talk to a water park in Colorado Springs, Colorado and they're like BFFs with Gracie who's, you know, one of our associates. You will have a compliment from an entity in Southern California about the point of sale, material that Tyler, who's another colleague put together. So, you know, it's great to be based in Cleveland, but we're really working in the world not only with those 40 plus states that Fisk mentioned, but it's exporting to Japan and the Caribbean and making sure that, you know, we can be a Cleveland based company, you know, working on a global scale.
Jeffrey Stern [00:45:02]:
Has it gained traction in any places been particularly surprising to you?
Fisk Biggar [00:45:07]:
Oh, yeah. We've had a lot of surprises along the way. I mean, I think some of the surprises, you know, I think one of which I think is a good example. You know, when we're tracking sales, we've there is this restaurant in Colorado that came up called Bad Axe. It's one of those axe throwing chains. And and, you know, first, we saw it kinda reorder, rearing going, and then all of a sudden, they're doing, you know, 2, 300 cases a year. We're like, man, we are killing it, this axe throwing chain. So that that really has kinda opened our I mean, that surprised us.
Fisk Biggar [00:45:36]:
We didn't think much about it, but it really opened our eyes to this eatertainment. And and now if you kinda fast forward, we're in Dave and Buster's. Right? So I mean, that accident, I think, surprised me, but now I'm so unsurprised about Dave and Buster's because it opened my eyes to the opportunity there. Graham just mentioned Japan. I think Japan's, a pretty cool one. I don't know for you. What's your favorite account out there?
Graham Veysey [00:45:58]:
I don't know if there's a favorite account, but there's a favorite text that I get, you know, pretty often now of friends from different parts of life that I might not have talked to in a bit. Taking a picture with a can of gram fist, wine in a can at a venue that I didn't even know that we were in or at a store that I didn't even know that we had shelf space. And then they're like, oh my gosh. Look. And they're elated and it's just as a great validation. So there's not necessarily one account, but there's that text picture that is of pals from different phases of life that always brings a smile to my face.
Fisk Biggar [00:46:40]:
That's the best thing we get.
Graham Veysey [00:46:41]:
Yeah. And then I in Louisiana?
Fisk Biggar [00:46:51]:
In Louisiana?
Graham Veysey [00:46:51]:
I'm like, oh my word. Where where where
Jeffrey Stern [00:46:55]:
That's awesome. Well, we'll close it out here. I'll leave it, I'll leave some just kinda greenfield for for any, you know, closing thoughts, reflections on on the journey so far, and then we'll we'll tie it back to to some some stuff in Cleveland.
Graham Veysey [00:47:10]:
I'm wearing Dockers right now, but I think Nike's whole mantra of just do it is super important for people who are listening and thinking about an entrepreneurial endeavor. And it might be oversimplification, but the fact is if you don't do it, you're gonna regret it if it's an idea that's resonating with you.
Fisk Biggar [00:47:34]:
I I guess, you know, mine's a little bit more in the moment and probably got from Instagram real or something like that. But it was I thought it was a bit more like a spritter talking about when you're chasing your dreams, a third of it's pleasant, a third of it's neutral, and a third of it's hard. It's just the way it is. I think to Graham's point, this is, it's it's a hell of a ride. It is so much fun, and I wouldn't trade it in for anything in the world.
Jeffrey Stern [00:47:58]:
Alright. Well, our closing question is related to Cleveland, and it is not for your favorite things in Cleveland, but for hidden gems, for things that other folks may not necessarily know about, but perhaps should.
Graham Veysey [00:48:12]:
Yeah. If somebody hasn't I I had lunch that I feel badly for Fisk because you can probably smell it on my breath, but I had an amazing scene with the water, which is on the ground floor. So good.
Fisk Biggar [00:48:23]:
Fire City Firehouse
Graham Veysey [00:48:24]:
at West 29th in church. And so if you haven't been to Larder and you're listening to this and it's Tuesday through Saturday, get on your bike or walk over, get in the car and head to 1455 West 29th Street.
Fisk Biggar [00:48:40]:
It would
Jeffrey Stern [00:48:41]:
be too dangerous for me to to work with you guys because I would be at Larder every day, I think. Yeah.
Fisk Biggar [00:48:47]:
I mean, it's it's like we got Rising Star on one side. We got Larder on the other. I barely leave this place. Then you got great, you know, beach or you got great great things in the neighborhood. Don't get me wrong, but, good stuff right here. You know, I was thinking of kind of like a favorite. I mean, just the sunset of Whiskey Island. I don't you know, there is nothing better than laying down the blanket, bringing a picnic, and, cracking up.
Fisk Biggar [00:49:10]:
One of the best date nights I've had in a long time. Just, you know, finding a spot there.
Graham Veysey [00:49:15]:
What about you, Jeffrey? What's a spot that we might not that you've discovered of of late?
Jeffrey Stern [00:49:22]:
Of late. My my recent favorite has been the the Redline Greenway development. I everything in Metro Parks is amazing, but I've it has brought me a lot of joy having that in the vicinity just to go on a run or a bike. Because then it connects all the way to the towpath, and you can just take that from Ohio City all the way to Akron. It's it's incredible.
Graham Veysey [00:49:45]:
It is incredible. There there's a tree that's growing within an old vertical trellis
Jeffrey Stern [00:49:52]:
that I I know exactly what you're talking about.
Graham Veysey [00:49:54]:
Yeah. It's really neat and just one of those magical nodes within the Metropark system. So I think it I would I would second your Metroparks Redline Greenway suggestion.
Jeffrey Stern [00:50:08]:
Awesome. Well, Graham Fisk, this was, this was awesome. Really appreciate your guys' time and and coming on to to share share your story.
Fisk Biggar [00:50:17]:
Thanks for having us, Jeffrey. Appreciate it.
Jeffrey Stern [00:50:19]:
If, if folks had anything they wanted to follow-up with you about, what would be the the best way for them to do so?
Graham Veysey [00:50:26]:
Email us at info@gramandfisk.com.
Fisk Biggar [00:50:29]:
We get them.
Jeffrey Stern [00:50:30]:
Easy. Awesome. Alright. Thanks again, guys.
Graham Veysey [00:50:33]:
Thanks a lot.
Jeffrey Stern [00:50:36]:
That's all for this week. Thank you for listening. We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's show, so if you have any feedback, please send over an email to jeffrey@layoftheland.fm, or find us on Twitter at podlayoftheland or @sternjefe, j e f e. If you or someone you know would make a good guest for our show, please reach out as well and let us know. And if you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or on your preferred podcast player. Your support goes a long way to help us spread the word and continue to bring the Cleveland founders and builders we love having on the show. We'll be back here next week at the same time to map more of the land.
New to the show? Check out some of Lay of The Land's most popular episodes.