#87: Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley)

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:00:00]:

We've just been the a part of people's lives, and people have been very kind during the closure when we would say, I'm sorry. We're closing. They wouldn't get angry. They would just say, we're gonna miss you.

Jeffrey Stern [00:00:12]:

Let's discover the Cleveland entrepreneurial ecosystem. We are telling the stories of its entrepreneurs and those supporting them. Welcome to the Lay of the Land podcast where we are exploring what people are Building in Cleveland. I am your host, Jeffrey Stern. And today, I had the real pleasure of sitting down in person with Sheryl Paul Witt, who is the founder Of Lolly the Trolley. A beloved icon here in Cleveland since 1985, Lolly the Trolley is itself a moving local gem covering 3,100,000 miles during its 37 years on the road where they had as many as 15 trolleys with about 150 people working there. When the company was started, Cleveland didn't have the sites and tourist attractions that are known by residents and visitors alike today. At that time, Cheryl took a chance and provided Clevelanders and tourists with a new way to experience the city that was in early stages of a rebirth.

Jeffrey Stern [00:01:08]:

Lolly the trolley became rolling ambassadors for the city, offering vantages and sightseeing for visitors and residents, helping many, Myself included, get to know Cleveland much more intimately and create lasting memories here. After almost 40 years of running the business, Cheryl and her cofounder, Peter Paul, decided to permanently close the company in May of 2022. With that, it was a real privilege to hear Cheryl's reflections on the journey and the evolution of Cleveland throughout that time and how their tours affected so many from around the country and even the world, from brides to students to sports fans to tourists to locals alike. Please enjoy my conversation with Sheryl Polwitz. So I I wanted to start actually with an anecdote, and I'm sure, you know, you might be used to the the many thousands of folks who've gone on Lolly the Trolley who've Express, like, what it it meant to them. But a few years ago, just shortly after I moved to Cleveland, I got to go on a a lot of the trolley tour, And it was easily one of the most, like, formative experiences I had just being here in Cleveland. And still, in retrospect, when I think back on the things I've done here in Cleveland about Seeing parts of Cleveland that I I wouldn't have on my own volition, the history, the culture, ours, we we kind of started in Clark Fulton and made our way through to the east side and, you know, stopped in Glenville and Hough. And at that point, actually, we met we stopped at, at Chateau Hough where Mansfield Frasier was

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:02:45]:

The late Mansfield Frasier.

Jeffrey Stern [00:02:47]:

Who was actually one of the first people I had on the podcast, because he was of the most inspirational people I'd ever met in my life and was really just kinda blown away by the work he was doing there and his whole story. And so, yeah, I I just wanted to thank you because, I mean, it it really Added so much perspective to my time here in Cleveland so far, and I learned a lot about just the history and the nature of the city that I I don't think I would have Otherwise.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:03:15]:

What organization put you on the trolley?

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:18]:

It was Venture for America.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:03:19]:

Oh, was Venture for America? Okay. And we we did several Tours. I don't know if you called it Adventure For America when we did it. But, yeah, it was fun, and we had to do a specific tour for you. It it wasn't

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:32]:

Yes.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:03:32]:

The regular city tour.

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:34]:

Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:03:35]:

You know? And that's great. I think I think we influenced a lot of people. We changed minds and hearts. It was just always an outpouring of love, you know, us to our customers and our customers to us. Very Rarely was anything any you know, was it ever adversarial during a tour. It's been a good experience, and I don't regret any of it. Sacrificed a lot, but don't regret it.

Jeffrey Stern [00:04:02]:

Yeah. And I I will will kinda touch, I think, on a lot of aspects of that throughout the conversation here, but Yeah. I just I just wanted to start by if

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:04:11]:

I thank you,

Jeffrey Stern [00:04:12]:

because it it was it was really an incredible experience. And one of the, you know, the the closing question that I've asked everyone on the show so far, Almost a 100 in his you know, for their favorite hidden gems in Cleveland. And I feel like that tour was just full of The hidden gems of of Cleveland.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:04:29]:

Absolutely.

Jeffrey Stern [00:04:29]:

And so when we get to that question, I imagine there's

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:04:32]:

I have a list.

Jeffrey Stern [00:04:34]:

That is an unbelievable amount, I'm sure, that you have.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:04:38]:

It's it's always when somebody asks you, what was your favorite you go blank. Right. So so then I just had to I go, take a breath. Just let it come. You know, let's let's think about things that could be hidden gems because some things are not that hidden anymore.

Jeffrey Stern [00:04:53]:

Right. And the city has changed a lot. I imagine, you know, you've you've

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:04:57]:

Oh, absolutely.

Jeffrey Stern [00:04:59]:

So maybe it's it's helpful to to start at the beginning in some ways. Did you have a vision Of lollied the trolley when you were starting it? Like, where where did the the inspiration, the impetus to to to start this organization come from?

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:05:16]:

The concept of being an entrepreneur, for me, came out of the mere fact that I've never been good at playing with others. And I think many entrepreneurs chafe at working for other people. I think it's maybe a hallmark of ours that we don't like to be told what to do. And so I had been through a series of jobs after graduating from college. And I I graduated with a journalism degree, which prepares you for absolutely everything and absolutely nothing. So I got out of college, and I had had some summer work with the old May Company department store in downtown Cleveland. And I always say maybe when I'm really old, I come downtown and live in in one of the apartments there, and I'll probably be in a department where I'd worked as a kid. But I I worked at the May Company in retailing, and this is back in the day when for a woman to become a buyer would be the glamorous thing.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:06:18]:

But I I found that I have always been one to question authority. And back in 19 Seventy, after I graduated from college, I was in a meeting, a junior executives meeting, and I raised my hand and I said, Why is it that men make more than women here? And I was hauled up through a series of offices and finally got to the Person who really wanted to talk to me. And she said, why did you ask that? She said, it's really none of your business. But just to let you know, Men are paid more than women because men have families that they have to support. So this is very reflective of, Oh, you know, 50 years ago. Right. So my career has always been one of of working in I worked in retail, then I worked in, industrial sales and other areas. But it's always been one of questioning authority and being fired a lot.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:07:20]:

I think that, entrepreneurs, by their very nature, again, not wanting to be told what to do, do find themselves out of a job maybe more frequently than others. But in my one of my last jobs, I was doing volunteer work Down in Playhouse Square, when the theaters had not been redone, they were just had been saved from the wrecking ball by Ray Shepherds. And There was a show called Jacque Brella's alive and long living in Paris, and that was at one of the theater lobbies. And it was in the round. And it was just to keep the doors open and to keep some money coming in so they could try and continue to save the theaters. And I volunteered to become A tour guide for these crumbling theaters, and I would take people on tours of the lobbies and the back areas and and show them what could be. And this was a harbinger, really, of what I ended up doing those trolley tours. And I was good at it.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:08:18]:

I could weave the stories. I could express The story's well, and people loved what I did. But it was only volunteer, you know, evenings and weekends when I wasn't working. So I, I had a lady approach me 1 night, and she said, I have a company here in Cleveland, and we do walking tours of the city. And, we also put our tour guides on, charter coaches when groups come in, and we do tours that way. Would you like to come and work for me? And I said, no. Thank you so much. I have this fabulous high paying job with x y z company.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:08:59]:

And I said, I really don't. I you know, I was newly married and all that sort of thing. And I said, no. No. I don't think so. Then about, oh, I don't know, 4 or 5 months later, through a friend, I heard that this same woman who had approached me Was selling her company called Best Conventions, and she, was looking for a buyer. And I I was put in touch with her through contacts that I had. And I talked to her, and her purchase price was extremely Low.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:09:35]:

Not back then. I mean, when it came to paying it back, it was a lot of money. But in retrospect, it was reasonably priced. And I said, oh, I you know, I think I could do this, walking tours and bus tours of Cleveland. So and and she had a charming little office up in the old arcade on the top floor. And I talked to my then husband, and we chatted. And I said, I really think I'd like to do this. I think I could do something with it.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:10:02]:

So I bought Best Conventions. And immediately, all the tour guides that she had quit and formed their own company in competition. So it was it was interesting. It was something to overcome. And, you know, I blank sometimes when I think about it. But we we Did walking tours. We did little conventions. I made enough money to pay her and to pay myself a little something, But it wasn't a huge moneymaker.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:10:30]:

But it was an experience, and it was the getting to know Cleveland.

Jeffrey Stern [00:10:35]:

Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:10:35]:

And fortunately, Two, she had scripts kind of already done, so I I could learn easily about the various areas, And I inherited a lot of information. And I scrambled and found some people to come work for me who wanted to be tour guides. So We kinda got it going, and that was 1981, 82. I had lived in Boston in the early seventies in in the retail realm working for a store called Franklin Simon. And I had met some really nice people while I was up there, and I got fired from that job too, by the way. My husband and I went up to Boston in 1982 to go to a wedding of 1 of the people I'd made friends with in in the city. And while we were up there, we went to downtown Boston, and there were these trolleys doing tours.

Jeffrey Stern [00:11:27]:

Mhmm.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:11:27]:

And I said, oh my gosh. I said, I bet if we got one of these I said, I don't think Cleveland could handle anything more than that. I think if we got one of these trolleys, We could probably do tours in Cleveland because I said the walking tour is very tough for people, for people to be on their feet for a long time, especially if you're older.

Jeffrey Stern [00:11:44]:

And it could be limiting. You know, maybe get to see

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:11:47]:

It's limited to how how far we could go. Our our walking tour was basically leave the arcade, walk down East 6th Street, pass all of the group planned buildings down to city hall. Go into city hall, come out, walk up to Lakeside Courthouse, Come out, walk up Ontario Mhmm. And maybe duck into the Justice Centre and see some of the interesting murals and things there, And then come back up to the arcade. And and that took an hour and a bit. So on our way home from being in Boston for this wedding, My husband and I were writing down how much did they charge for their tours and and I said, oh my god. We could make millions. You know? So if we charge this and beep beep beep beep beep.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:12:31]:

So we have this little piece of paper with everything, you know. And I said, I think I I really wanna do this. So my husband kept working, And I was running best conventions, but we started looking into getting a trolley. And I found the manufacturer in Florida, And, they were actually built out in Illinois by people who made, you know, the things that haul horses to horse shows? You know, those you know, like a horse

Jeffrey Stern [00:12:58]:

Yeah.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:12:58]:

A horse trailer.

Jeffrey Stern [00:12:59]:

A horse trailer. Yeah.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:13:00]:

But they figured out a way to take a a motor home chassis and put and create this beautiful trolley looking case over it, this this covering. So I called the guy in Florida who who sold these, and he said, you really wanna do this Cleveland, Ohio trolley tours of Cleveland? I said, really, really, really, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I he said, well, you know, x number of dollars. So I said, So I had to do a business plan. Right. So I had to figure out how to do that.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:13:32]:

And, I got pictures of the trolley and Figured out what it would take, and then I started going out to try and find a bank and investors. Now in in the mid eighties, This is during the Reagan era. Banks were having some issues, and some of there were the the the bank scandals and everything. But, also, interest rates for the average business were at about 14%.

Jeffrey Stern [00:14:00]:

And So we think it's high today.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:14:02]:

Yeah. A 14 14% is just a bear. So I set out, and I started to talk to people, and I just called everybody I could think of and had People call other people. And by the time I was said and done, I believe I was only looking for $5,000 from, Oh, I don't know. Maybe 6 or 8 or 10 people. I was gonna borrow a 150 and put up 50 from myself and investors. My husband and I took out a a mortgage on our our condo and, you know, that kind of thing. So It took me, I don't know, 2 years to find investors.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:14:42]:

Now today, the kids go online. They do a GoFundMe. They do a whatever. And there are venture capitalists all over the place waiting to do this kind of thing. My whole thing, people would say, you wanna start a tour of Cleveland on a trolley? Thank you very much. No. And I talked to people who could have financed the entire venture out of their own personal checkbooks.

Jeffrey Stern [00:15:04]:

And

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:15:04]:

I was only looking for $50,000. So I finally you know, friends, no family. My father wouldn't invest. He just wouldn't. So I finally I think we got 40,000 maybe. And then the bank trips started, and every bank turned me down. And the and I filed for an SBA loan, And I also went down to the treasurer of the state of Ohio, and they had, a loan Mary Ellen Withrow was her name, which is marvelous. And she was very supportive.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:15:42]:

They had a loan program that they would work with the SBA and give you a loan for prime plus 2 less Three. So it was whatever the primary was, not, you know and and then add 2 points and pull back 3.

Jeffrey Stern [00:15:57]:

Yeah.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:15:57]:

So I think my final loan rate is probably 12 or something. But she said, if you can get the bank and the SBA behind, she said, you've got this. I said, okay. Driving back to Cleveland. You know? So I kept going to the banks going, look. The state of Ohio Treasure's office is behind this. And then I went to a friend at, Council of Smaller Enterprises, and Cozy was very, Strong. Very robust back in those days.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:16:28]:

And I said to, Carol Rivchin, who was with COSI for years, and she finally Headed up Youth Opportunities Unlimited. That was her final job before retirement. I said, I am being denied A loan approval by the SBA. And I said, can you help me in any way? Because they just said, yeah. We don't think this is a really good idea. So I don't know. She might have had pictures of people. I don't know.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:16:55]:

But within 24 hours of me putting out my plea for help, I had the SBA approval that I needed, which got a bank to come on board. And to find the bank, I I talked to this lovely man, And he was just a a dear man. And I said, look. There's a trolley coming through Cleveland on its way to be delivered to, I think, Boston, this coming weekend, would you and your family like to come down, hop on a trolley, and see what it's like? He went, okay. So he came down with his family, and they got on the trolley. And the trolley driver drove us around downtown, and he was hooked. Yeah. He so he said, I'm really gonna fight for you on this, so he did.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:17:37]:

So everything finally came together. I got the state of Ohio. I got the SBA, and I got the bank, and I had the investors' money. 1985 was our opening year. We were having a party at the arcade for 600 people, media, friends, Hospitality industry, hotels, everybody who could use our services. And I called my manufacturer and said, Hi. I've got this really big party coming up in March. You know, I said the trolley is gonna be ready in time.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:18:06]:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. It'll be ready. It'll be ready. And then, you know, 5 days before, I've had the parties in 5 days. You know, I really need my trolley to be delivered.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:18:17]:

Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. It's We're working on it. So the day before, I called, and I said, what's the deal? Right.

Jeffrey Stern [00:18:26]:

This is the the gentleman down in Florida.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:18:28]:

In Florida who was who I paid money to, and he said, well, there's a little hiccup here. I said, well, I don't care about your hiccup. I've got people coming at 5 o'clock, you know, 2 days from now. I said, I don't care what What you said to me just has to look like a trolley because I said they you know? So the day the party comes, we've got the main concourse at the arcade. We're set up with food. We're set up with entertainment. We're set up with all kinds of people helping. And the party's supposed to start at 6 or whatever time it was gonna be.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:19:03]:

And I'm looking, and I'm looking, and I'm outside looking, and it's Raining, and the arcade roof is leaking. And I'm like, oh my god. Oh my god. You know? Bad karma here. So I looked out in 5 minutes before the party starts. I see coming around the corner a trolley. Wasn't red. It was blue.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:19:24]:

And my guy in Florida had one of his people drive straight through to 22 hours or whatever it is to get up to Cleveland. So the guy the young man spent his time, driving people around the block. And so all the guests got to go out and experience a trolley. And and when the party was over, bye bye. And he drove off and got a motel and then drove back to Florida the next day.

Jeffrey Stern [00:19:49]:

Wow. And at this point, it it wasn't Lolly the trolley.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:19:52]:

It was.

Jeffrey Stern [00:19:53]:

It was. Where did the name come from?

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:19:55]:

The name Lolly actually was the nickname of The gentleman from Florida, his partner's mother-in-law or something. I was just one of those things. Besides that, it rhymes. So Right. You know?

Jeffrey Stern [00:20:08]:

It's gotta

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:20:08]:

be good. Been Polly. It could've been Holly. But, Lolly, just really worked, and I got permission to use it. And it was funny too when I when I filed to get the name, and people have to Remember this when they started business. When I filed to use the name Trolley Tours of Cleveland, the state of Ohio goes, I'm sorry. There's already a Trolley Tours of Marietta, you can't use it without permission. I'm like, what? And this is like a A one trolley operation may be down in Marietta, and it didn't really run every day.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:20:42]:

I think they might even still be in business. I don't know. So we got permission to be Trolley Tours of Cleveland. And April 15, 1985, we opened, And our 1st job was to be in the opening day parade for the Cleveland Indians.

Jeffrey Stern [00:20:59]:

Oh, wow.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:21:00]:

So I called down, hi. My trolley's in the opening day parade for the Indians. I don't see it. It's not here yet. When are you delivering my trolley? And, again, pins and needles waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting. And they showed up about 20 minutes before the parade with my trolley. And it was in the parade, And it was a big hit, and then that was a Saturday. Sunday, I went out and learned how to drive a trolley.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:21:28]:

Back in that day, you did not need a commercial driver's license. A chauffeur's license was fine. So I went out Sunday to a big parking lot front of the old municipal stadium and learned how to drive a trolley. And then that Monday, we began doing tours.

Jeffrey Stern [00:21:42]:

Wow.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:21:43]:

So it was And and we didn't have a sets a really good set script. So the, people who worked with me at Best Conventions were transitioning to trolley tours. And so they would ride along with me and Right? Furiously, you know, whatever I was saying, and then we'd go back that night and type it to get a full script for other people to learn. Yeah. So it was it was a heady time. It was exhausting. It was wonderful. People didn't really show up that 1st day, and but we did the tour anyway and rang the bell and waved at people.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:22:26]:

And then the 2nd day, I think 2 little old ladies showed up and took the tour. And then they must have gone back and told everybody they knew because It started, you know, it started to pick up.

Jeffrey Stern [00:22:36]:

Right. Did did you have a sense at that point of, like, how many lives you would touch? I don't know the exact number, but, know, hundreds of thousands of people that would

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:22:44]:

Millions.

Jeffrey Stern [00:22:45]:

Millions.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:22:45]:

Millions. Yeah. No. I don't think I did. I I didn't think of it really as being becoming such a part of people's lives, but we did. My sales style, should we say, is to get very personal with people. Yeah. Even if they're just calling for a single reservation for a tour.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:23:06]:

Hi. Where are you from? You know, that kind of thing. And we never we never went to automated sales of any kind. You could leave a voice Mail to make a reservation, we'd always call you back. But until the end, we always had an answering service For a live person to always take your call, that was very important to me. And people appreciated it. You know, Your generation, no offense, we're very used to the the electronic or the digital interaction to get things done. But there are an awful lot of us who prefer talking to a real person and hoping they'll be polite and customer service oriented.

Jeffrey Stern [00:23:46]:

I find myself drawn to talking to real people as well.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:23:50]:

It can be a little bit faster From an informational standpoint, and you feel perhaps well, you can tell when you're talking to a live person if they're really listening. So you can have, justified worry or a feeling of having been cared for in the conversation. But no. As far as how many people we would touch, no. We never knew how big we would be or how many people we would carry. The bulk of our business during the 1st, probably, 5 years was really daily tours. And then we really began to Pickup, school tours, the weddings, the public events, that kind of thing where we would impact people. And and when we started doing personal and public events, that's, you know, that's where you really get involved in someone's life.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:24:41]:

When you're doing someone's wedding

Jeffrey Stern [00:24:42]:

Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:24:43]:

Or, you know, we've we've done surprise proposals. So you're really working with everybody, and and And I would I'd put on kind of a a semi mom hat and go, do you really wanna do it that way? Right. Let me think. Let's talk this a little bit to how to make it better. Because, basically, Best Conventions taught me the, the event Mindset, how to do events, and how to interact with people. And I think something, for entrepreneurs is Everything in your life is giving everything you do in your life, so that's why you never say no. Everything you do in your life gives you a tool for the next thing you're going to do. So be mindful of everything you do in your life because it's going to help you on the next leg.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:25:38]:

That was one of, I think, one of the things that I learned. Also, I was when I was young, I was kind of an introverted negative person. Trolley tours, because of the process of having to find buyers I mean, investors for the company Yeah. And and to basically sell to everybody who called, I became a more positive person because I couldn't say negative things about my own company or Cleveland. So I became a more positive person because of it. And it it it it's a genetic change that eventually takes place in you that you become I think on a cellular level, you can become a more positive person. And I really I thank Trolley Tours for that. The person that I am now is I am very much a product of that process.

Jeffrey Stern [00:26:33]:

Mhmm.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:26:34]:

So I I will always be grateful. And and, also, I have to give I have to give an awful lot of credit to the dear man who was married to me at the time that I started trolley tours. Peter, Paul, and I had gotten married in 1977, and we each worked in our respective, you know, businesses, but he'd always been supportive of me. And when I got when we went to Boston and came back with the idea for trolley tours, he he said, go for it. So He was very supportive. And about 6 months into starting the company, he would drive from his job down in the Akron, Canton area up to Cleveland every day to help me wash the trolleys and, just kinda catch up on stuff. And finally, after about 6 months, I think, into it, he said, do you think we could some could do you think we could support ourselves? And I went, I don't know. Barely.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:27:33]:

So he came to work at trolley church really for no money. But he very logical, disciplined person. So he took over the bookkeeping and a lot of that and Helped with the tickets and helped clean the trolleys, and he became just the backbone of the company. And that is That is how we we've always shared things. I was the face of the company, and he was the The backroom, the operations, the the safety and security, the, just making sure things ran right. And sometimes he chafed at that. But, but Peter Paul was an amazing person for trolley tours. Yeah.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:28:19]:

He kept us going. Never never bounced a check, never missed a payroll in 37 years. Wow. That's what he was able to do for us. And we found, Down the road, about about 7 or 8 years into the business, that We had put so much time and energy into the business, and we had not put the same level of Time and energy into our marriage. So we decided that, you know, something had to survive, So we chose trolley tours. And it was a very hard decision for both of us. And we continued To work together every day, going through a divorce, it was it was hard.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:29:09]:

I will always be grateful that we We're able to do it and to keep the company going. And that is that's one of his attributes too is that When presented with the need to do this, that we were both able to embrace it without too much rancor. And we'll always be friends, and we'll always care about each other. We're just not married to each other.

Jeffrey Stern [00:29:38]:

Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:29:39]:

And people who go into business with someone who they care about, they really have to be careful. They have to know what they're doing. Because the weaknesses in your relationship will come out in how you run your business, and you so you really have to know yourselves.

Jeffrey Stern [00:29:57]:

Right. And that could manifest in different ways. But but, Lolly, the trolley, you know, grew from from when it started.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:30:05]:

It did. It did. It it grew tremendously. We at one time, we we really wanted to go through a growth spurt, and we were up to 15 vehicles. And we just really wanted to grow the company. For some reason, we just thought that's what you had to do. Mhmm. My nature is not I'm not a big company person, thus, my problem working in a corporate America.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:30:29]:

And so We we had some disagreements about how much to grow the company. And so we did about a 2 or 3 year push maybe 2 years to grow it. And we took in a lot of money as a result when we had the Fifteen vehicles and a whole bunch of people, and we we increased staff, you know, tremendously. But we also lost a lot of money. So after that experience, we went, maybe not. So we began to cut back. And we got down to, finally, to 8 vehicles, which was manageable for a market the size of Cleveland.

Jeffrey Stern [00:31:11]:

Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:31:12]:

I would much rather have a sold out capacity then vehicles sitting idle.

Jeffrey Stern [00:31:19]:

Right. And and were the folks who who participated in tours, were they What was, I guess, the breakdown of those who are Clevelanders from Cleveland versus those who were coming to Cleveland?

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:31:31]:

When we started, For obvious reasons, you know, we were a local company, and so and we were kind of the new new thing on the block. So our our ridership was probably 70% local and 30% Visitors. Because Cleveland, when we started, barely had Probably 500,000 noted visitors per year. And by the time we, you know, Closed. Cleveland is be between 18 and 20,000,000 visitors a year.

Jeffrey Stern [00:32:10]:

That's huge. Yeah. That is that is a lot higher than I thought.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:32:13]:

And, I mean, you know, it's it's counting the wider Cleveland area, of course, not just downtown. So, you know, in the beginning, we were scrambling to find, you know, people to put on the trolley. So locals came. So it was 70 70% local, thirty. And then I would say, towards the end, I really think our ridership might have been 30 or 40% local and maybe, You know, 60, 70% none. But then we had, you know, schoolchildren, and I I brought I I have some, you know, some little little stats. We went probably about we we estimate 3,100,000 miles in in our 37 years and did it safely. We really did.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:33:03]:

I mean, we had 1 incident, a serious incident. We probably had, over that course of time, maybe a 150 people working for us. The profile of who we would have work at Lolly The Trolley. Generally, older adults who had had their careers And who were looking for something fun to do. Generally, the profile would then give me, a workforce of people generally in the 55 to upwards of 80 age bracket. Yeah. And when people would come, they really didn't wanna leave. They enjoyed what they did.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:33:43]:

I mean, how many jobs do you have where you do what you're supposed to do, and then everybody claps for you at the end. Right.

Jeffrey Stern [00:33:51]:

And it's genuine. It is. Because one of the things I I noted as a as someone who went on the tour and I I've been on a lot of different tours in different cities, But the the quality of this one, like, the depth and the breadth is just like I don't I don't think I had been on a tour like it before. And so, I mean, one of the things I wanted to ask you about was the the process for, you know, creating the scripts and and finding the people to to deliver them with such, You know, efficacy.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:34:19]:

The the scripts grew out of some of the source material that I had at the best conventions purchased. So that was something that saved me some time. But I am inherently a writer with my journalism background, and I've been a writer my whole life. That is my strength. And whether it's a letter to somebody, a flyer for an ad, or, you know, or a script for a tour, That's what I do, and that's what I do well. And I I have a theory of what makes a tour interesting. And there are a lot of really bad tours out there.

Jeffrey Stern [00:34:58]:

Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:34:59]:

And the bad tours are the ones where if you are given a fact and your response is, so what? That's not a valid tour fact. But some people who give tours indulge themselves and talk about What's interesting to them, not what's interesting to the general public?

Jeffrey Stern [00:35:22]:

Mhmm.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:35:23]:

So the key to any tour is Biggest, smallest, best, worst, 1st, last, 3rd largest. I mean, any Something on a comparative basis that people can take and go, oh, I didn't know that.

Jeffrey Stern [00:35:40]:

Right. Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:35:41]:

And that's always been What we've gone for on the tour. And then my writing style, is very demanding for someone who's going to give our tour. We expect you to enunciate and present well. Always use proper English. People are smart. They can understand well written English, so let's give it to them. So that's always been really one of the bellwethers of of what I have done. I got a little more lax maybe in the last 10 years or so, and I allowed, our tour guides to do more of their own thing.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:36:20]:

But the essence of what was to be told was always there. Every we've always respected the material. So that was, I think, something that was the key to our success. Also, the kind of people I would hire Many times, we're retired business people, retired teachers, and people who who loved what they did and also We're information junkies. Yeah. So if you're an information junkie, you are going to seek out even more information than might be in there. And I would have to occasionally rein people in and go you know, I'd get a phone call from somebody and go, I was on your chore, and your chore guide said thus and so. And I go, oh, really? I go, Woah.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:37:07]:

That isn't really in the script.

Jeffrey Stern [00:37:10]:

Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:37:10]:

And I said, let me check it out for you. And so we'd have sometimes, we have a discussion, and there are things that maybe were Culturally inappropriate, who knows, that we would say, let's not have that in the tour. Right. You want any good tour to Peeled to as wide a swath of people, and you want the tour to respect their intelligence and their sensitivities.

Jeffrey Stern [00:37:33]:

Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:37:33]:

You know, over the course of 37 years, though, the world has changed. So phrasing that we may have used back in 1985 had to evolve out of just out of, maybe, a respect, for the, For the experiences that people have.

Jeffrey Stern [00:37:52]:

Right. Well, this is one of the things I also wanted to ask you about because earlier you mentioned, I don't know, that you You didn't wanna say negative things about Cleveland, but one of the things that really struck me about the tour was that We were very much engaging in difficult topics. We were talking about race. We were talking about gentrification. We were Exploring, you know, the the histories of of these neighborhoods, but in a way that didn't feel abrasive, and and did respect, you know, what had has happened in these places.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:38:26]:

The tour for the general public, we Generally avoided going into any any of the areas. You you were a very targeted tour group, And so there would have been input from your mentors for the tour along with our people.

Jeffrey Stern [00:38:44]:

Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:38:45]:

And When we would do a targeted or or a, site specific tour, we call custom tailored tour, basically. Then my folks, my tour guides, would call and talk to the folks involved and say, what do you want us to key in on? So that is where that kind of discussion would come from. Generally, though, we would try to avoid, Anything that would make anyone feel less than they should.

Jeffrey Stern [00:39:19]:

Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:39:19]:

And and we but we acknowledge that Cleveland's had problems and that it hasn't solved all of its problems. But That's not something you just talk about as part of an o digit

Jeffrey Stern [00:39:33]:

Right. Right. Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:39:34]:

Yeah.

Jeffrey Stern [00:39:34]:

But, I mean, I think one of the things that must have been really, You know, cool over the arc of La La Trolley seeing how Cleveland has changed.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:39:42]:

Yes. Very much so. When we started out, the the cultural gardens We're not in very good shape. There didn't I don't think there was a a massive commitment in the eighties for the individual Ethnic groups to maintain their gardens. And it was actually a little bit dangerous to go through the cultural gardens. People would hide behind bushes and things and actually throw rocks at my passengers as we pass through. So there was a degree of danger involved. And, also, in the early days when we would go out Euclid Avenue, Euclid Avenue was a a little rough, and there were, professional women on the streets.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:40:28]:

And we so we we would call them Strolling hostesses or, what was the other term? Pavement princesses. And because, I mean, you can't ignore it.

Jeffrey Stern [00:40:40]:

Right. Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:40:41]:

When there's a lady in a swimsuit walking up and down the street. So, so we would where we could, we would not ignore, but yet make light of a difficult situation. And I think that, the mere fact that we were out, though, going through places like the cultural gardens, I think we helped spur them to redevelopment because people were looking at them. And especially if they were local people, they might go back to their Their local VFW or their local, you know, Hungarian church and going, our garden really doesn't look good. So I think I think we helped improve, a lot of a lot of things in in the city by our mere, presence and pointing them out. And, of course, when we started, there was no rock hall. There was no, FirstEnergy, there was no progressive field. There was no the theater district really wasn't up on its feet yet.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:41:39]:

So so so much of what we take for granted. The Flats was still a little dicey. It was fun. It was an old fashioned kind of fun, but it wasn't Slick like it is now. The warehouse district people were illegally living in in the, old warehouses. So, you know, Cleveland was rough and tumble in in in the eighties through early nineties. Then when Tower City came online and when they opened the Galleria, Then there was a certain panache that began to come and when the hotel started coming in. But, yeah, we were we were a little rough.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:42:15]:

And so we had to find a, you know, a sensitive and encouraging way to talk about it. So Right. There was an editorial cartoon that showed Lolly, the trolley, going on the street, and it shows our driver going and this is where the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is going to be, and this is where the so and so is going to be. It was all the things that we hoped were coming to Cleveland.

Jeffrey Stern [00:42:38]:

Right. I guess of the things that have, occurred Were there ones that were particularly surprising in the evolution of Cleveland, and what are the ones you're still waiting for?

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:42:48]:

I think I am pleased. Actually, I'm blown away by Ohio City because Ohio City was just, you know, urban pioneers who would who would buy an old house, fix up the inside, fix up the outside last, You know? And just kinda make do, and hope, you know, nothing got stolen. But Ohio City has gone and Tremont is amazing. The downtown living, I guess, the downtown living situation, the number of people that we have, you know, over 20,000 people living downtown now. I think when we started, it might have been 3,000 people living illegally, generally. So that has, the downtown living is probably one of the most surprising things to me. And the stadiums, you know, the ballparks, the stadiums is interesting. And Loving the fact that we have, a suitable convention center finally downtown.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:43:48]:

So, you know, we were there during the hard times. And, And I I worry that there'll be enough people coming and being in downtown to support it into the future. But I think, You know, as we look around our country and we see places with no water and wildfires and earthquakes and Flooding and terrible things going on. Ohio and the Cleveland area, especially, it's Amazing. We have more water than we'll ever need. And I remember when they wanted to ship our water out to some other states, and, no, we're not gonna do that. You come and live here. If you want water, come to Cleveland

Jeffrey Stern [00:44:28]:

Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:44:28]:

And the beautiful park systems we have. And, I mean, it just it's a city that, thanks to what we did, I think we convinced quite a few people to move here. And it was also the the phrase was always, I never knew Cleveland was like this. I am so impressed with your city. I can't believe what a wonderful city it is. What a beautiful city it is. We thought it was gonna be a rusty, old, icky city. Right? It's not.

Jeffrey Stern [00:44:53]:

It's that pleasant surprise.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:44:54]:

Yeah. We have some of the finest architecture in the country here, in terms of classic architecture and even some of the new. And the vibrant art scene we hear have here in the public art scene is is wonderful. So, you know, it's it's been a a pleasure for me to be part of The growth of the city. I'm sorry that I had to age in order to see it. When COVID came, it was a revelation for me and for my business partner because We were not working 247. And we've worked 247 for 30 plus 35 plus years. And it was a revelation to know what it was like to have a weekend at home.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:45:44]:

Mhmm. You know, because weekends are our biggest time, so I'd always be at the office. My My my current husband has spent 25 years waiting for me. So COVID was a terrible thing for our country. It was a terrible thing for an awful lot of businesses. But it was a revelation to my partner and to me, as to what not working As hard could be like. So we got into, you know, March 2020 and, of course, had to shut down. And we did a few little jobs that we thought we could control during the balance of the year.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:46:19]:

We were basically shut down, sent a lot of money back to a lot of people. And we we all thought that, you know, oh, COVID, it'll we'll be back open by July or something. And then it was, like, August. Well, maybe we'll open in the fall. Mhmm. Well, maybe so then well, we'll open in 2021. So I was taking reservations for 2021. And when we got to the end of 2020, my business partners had some health issues over the years, and they were coming to the forefront a little bit more.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:46:50]:

And then we never we've never owned our own building, and we've been in the flats in one way or another for 37 years. And, our building owners sold our building to, what turned out to be a a developer. And we were told at the end of 2020, It's very likely that you may have to move out in summer of 2021 because they want to tear down the building. And we went, blah. As far as I was concerned at that point, I said, you know, that's that's kind of the nail in the coffin. I did my partner and I did not have the the energy, the money, the whatever to go out and find a new building and do a move. I mean, we'd we'd done it one other time and it just about killed us. And we were a lot younger.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:47:42]:

So We made the decision going into 21 or going into to, by the end of 21, going into 22 to close trolley tours. And through serendipity, we found somebody who wanted to buy all 8 trolleys at once. Wow. And it's Operation out of Clearwater, Florida called Jolly Trolley Clearwater. Jolly. So, Lolly and her sisters are down in Clearwater, Florida, And they get to be in Florida for the winter, and I don't, but that's okay. But it it, The the close down has been interesting. It's been quite a quite a ride.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:48:24]:

And as it turned out, my my partner's, health issues became more serious. So it turned out that the decision that we made was the right one to make for both of us. So that is that is part of the closure. And people came down. We had a public sale. We had a private sale of a lot of our equipment, and then we had a public sale for 2 days. A true garage sale in our garage.

Jeffrey Stern [00:48:48]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:48:48]:

And people came and bought the most amazing stuff. They bought old trolley seats. They bought little any sign, they could find. I took the sign off the outside of the building, and I'm just amazing. And they wanted Postcards and envelopes, anything with trolley on it.

Jeffrey Stern [00:49:06]:

Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:49:06]:

It was very kind, and they all came in to give us hugs and to say they were gonna miss us.

Jeffrey Stern [00:49:10]:

Well, it's it's because the tours really sit with people and, emotionally.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:49:16]:

It it really we we hooked up emotionally with with so many people. And I it was so funny during the the 2 day sale, people would come in. And I saw a guy standing with my with my cordless drill. And I said, I'm sorry, sir. That is not for sale. He goes, oh, no. No. No.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:49:34]:

No. He said, I just took down I just looked down the mirror in the other room, and I wanna know how much you want for it. And it's like, what? And people bought Old yeah. Old trolley seats. They bought bells. They bought anything they could get their hands on. So it was it was a good experience. We we met a lot of wonderful people too.

Jeffrey Stern [00:49:55]:

Yeah. I

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:49:55]:

can imagine. It was fun. It was fun. A lot of people who were very kind to us. And a lot of people who paid us More money than they needed to for the items we were selling. That's love. You know?

Jeffrey Stern [00:50:05]:

Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:50:06]:

It is.

Jeffrey Stern [00:50:07]:

You know, it sounds a little Like a a bittersweet process.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:50:10]:

It is.

Jeffrey Stern [00:50:11]:

But I imagine, you know, in in reflection, there are a lot of, you know, important, You know, powerful. You know, being part of people's weddings is is really important.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:50:22]:

Yeah. We did over 4,000 weddings.

Jeffrey Stern [00:50:24]:

Yeah.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:50:24]:

And I would talk to a lot of Moms of the bride and and find out that maybe they weren't that crazy about the guy that she was gonna be marrying, or I would I would talk people out of doing certain things in their wedding, you know, to save money. I go, you don't need to do x, y, z. I said, people are okay with this. You know? And and the tendency in the last 15 years has been for people To skip the wedding and show up at the reception. I find that very rude. If, you know, If if you wanna come to the reception, please come to the wedding. Yeah. So so I I'd have long, Anguish talks with moms of the bride about that.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:51:11]:

And I'd give I'd give advice to brides, you know, about being married, and stuff like that. But it was, it was it's very personal when you do that. And we do this is your life parties. And that would be like, you know, dad is turning 90. And so we would go around with the entire family, and dad would Go to we'd take go to places where he went to school and maybe where he got married, where he worked, things that were important in the family history. And maybe they'd hop out and take a picture at some of these places. And some of them were not in any in good neighborhoods anymore, you know, But we could safely pull up in a trolley because everybody loves a trolley, and we could get out and and, take pictures. And it was a way too for the younger people in a family to have a narrative from an older adult about their lives.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:52:01]:

And we always urge people to, make a a digital recording of some sort Yeah. Of this presentation so that you would have it after this person was gone. And that was that was always that was always a special thing. And families can still do that kind of thing. You just have to Kind of think about it and and get that digital or that oral history that is so necessary. Yeah. It it's We've just been the a part of people's lives. And people have been very kind during the closure when we would say, I'm sorry.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:52:35]:

We're closing. They wouldn't get angry. They would just say, we're gonna miss you. Yeah. So yeah. And we probably did Tours for 300, 400,000 schoolchildren. And those are children whose parents might otherwise not have brought them downtown, because there are a lot of parents who are afraid of downtown.

Jeffrey Stern [00:52:55]:

Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:52:55]:

So we we got the kids to understand that we have been in every Saint Patrick's Day parade for teen years, usually with all 8 trolleys. Wow. So, you know and then at one time, they tried to Not allow us to have all of our trolleys in the parade, but that didn't go very far. So The the love of the people. Absolutely. And, of course, we were in the 2016 NBA championship parade. We carried, carried People from the Cavaliers, but not necessarily the team members. And but we still got to be in the parade, and that was pretty cool.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:53:37]:

And we did the the Republican convention. And like so many of the transportation companies that were hired for that, We really did literally nothing. Most of the transportation companies sat in their vehicles for the duration of the event over that week. Because Cleveland is such a compact city for a convention, the people were really most often able to walk where they needed to go. So we did some some shuttling, but not a lot. And, it was still a good experience. It was a a major national event, and we were there. When the cruise ships started coming to Cleveland, we were a part of that, you know, for 3 years, providing tours for them as they came into port, behind the Browns stadium.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:54:25]:

We've been a part of everything going on.

Jeffrey Stern [00:54:27]:

Yeah. Well, I'd I'd love to You're many more stories, but I know we're we're coming a little bit up on time here. So I'd love to to kinda bookend the the conversation With the the question, actually, that we have, everyone who comes on the podcast talk about, which is for, hidden hidden gems in Cleveland, which I imagine you are the best person of anyone I've ever asked this question about, what those are to you.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:54:52]:

I'm gonna I okay. Can I just run through a real quick list?

Jeffrey Stern [00:54:55]:

Oh, absolutely.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:54:57]:

Okay. I don't think a lot of people know that out at, Case Western Reserve University, there is A museum of medical history, Dietrich Museum of Medical History, and it's it's fascinating. It's a medical museum with all the horrible things that people used to use to try and and either pull out teeth or set bones or but, I mean, it's a very fascinating, little, Unknown museum. If you go down to the bottom of the Saint Clair Hill, there is a little Kind of a plaza down there between the Superior and Saint Clair Hills. And the brickwork is, a map of the first map of Cleveland of of downtown. And you can see the names of the Streets, they gave, like, Mandrake Lane and just it was the 1st map of Cleveland. Wow. And it's been replicated in in, like, pavers and stuff, And it's really neat.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:55:55]:

On on West ninth Street, underneath the Main Avenue bridge, you know, the big blue bridge that runs over.

Jeffrey Stern [00:56:02]:

Okay? Yep.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:56:03]:

Okay. Go on the south side. There are 4 little steps, maybe 5, off the sidewalk. Those, when when the lake was immediately adjacent, you know, that's all filled land down there.

Jeffrey Stern [00:56:20]:

Right.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:56:20]:

But Those steps used to lead up to a lighthouse that was at that location. Those are still the steps that led up to the lighthouse and the lighthouse keepers. Or you could they call it the lost lighthouse in Cleveland, but l o s t lost. Right. But these little steps led to this Massive lighthouse that would guide the ships in because there was no street there, of course. League Park is still one of, I think, our hidden gems, and all the things that happened there, the unassisted triple play in in the World Series and Babe Ruth's 5 100th home run and all those things. The arcade, I still think, is always a hidden gem. Just a beautiful, beautiful thing.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:57:02]:

I love the ethnic markets in Cleveland, all the Chinese markets, And the, oh, like, I love all the Middle Eastern markets and, of course, the West Side Market, which It's going to get new life, I'm thrilled to hear, with the new administration. The bridges in Cleveland and all the murals Sid have gone up in our city over the last 5 years are stunning.

Jeffrey Stern [00:57:25]:

They really are.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:57:26]:

And they're so reflective of who we are as a city, I think. They're just they're astounding. The new Canal Basin Park, if you if you know where that is, It's down. Just go down like you're well, it's how do I describe it? It's it's in the it's in the flats, and You come down either Superior or Saint Clair Hill, make a left, and just follow it around. And it's and it it follows the route of the, Ohio and Erie Canal

Jeffrey Stern [00:57:53]:

Yeah.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:57:53]:

Which transformed our city and made it into a a powerhouse city back in the day. And it goes all the way up to the little Locke that's on the the, river. I think that that culture gardens I love. Also, I don't know if it's still there. There's a Funky little I call it a farm. But if you're inside the convention center, you go up to one of the windows and you, like, look over, And there's this Yeah. That little funky farm with the beehives and the pig.

Jeffrey Stern [00:58:21]:

It is there. Yeah.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:58:22]:

It is still there.

Jeffrey Stern [00:58:23]:

I think it's a farm. I don't

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:58:24]:

I but it just you go, Woah. Beehives and a pig.

Jeffrey Stern [00:58:29]:

Yeah. Write it write it down down.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:58:31]:

Oh, yeah. But, I mean, just Those are those are some of the things is that make us charming. They really do. We're a wonderful city. We're a great place to live. We're affordable. We care about our people. We have to lift more of our our citizens up.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:58:50]:

We have to Create more manufacturing jobs, I think, within the city limits, manufacturing and and jobs that will Help our most vulnerable citizens. But I know Cleveland can do it. We are creative. You've been interviewing people who create Positive things in the city, we can do it. We can do it. And I hope somebody down the road says, I really miss Lolly the trolley. I think I'll Start it up again. That's my hope.

Jeffrey Stern [00:59:19]:

Yeah. I hope for that too. Well, Cheryl, I this was amazing. I really appreciate You taking the time and and sharing your your story.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:59:29]:

Thank you. And thank you for letting me know about you. This is really this is interesting. I love entrepreneurs. Any any closing thoughts? For anybody going into business, it's always the same advice. Always have a good accountant because you gotta pay your taxes or you'll be shut down. Don't ever use don't ever use your taxes for cash flow. You know? Some people don't pay their payroll taxes, and that'll shut you down real quick.

Sherrill Paul Witt (Lolly The Trolley) [00:59:57]:

Always have a good attorney who can save you if you get in trouble. Have a sense of humor about yourself. You're not that important. And treat your employees fairly, very much so. And you've got to love what you do. If you don't really love what you do and if you are not prepared to provide over the top customer service and be kind to everyone with whom you come in contact, you shouldn't be in business. I don't care what the business is.

Jeffrey Stern [01:00:24]:

That's all for this week. Thank you for listening. We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's show. So if you have any feedback, please send over an email to jeffrey@layoftheland.f or find us on Twitter at podlay of the land or at sternjefe, j e f e. If you or someone you know would make a good guest for our show, please reach out as well and let Snow. And if you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or on your preferred podcast player. Your support goes a long way to help us Spread the word and continue to bring the Cleveland founders and builders we love having on the show. We'll be back here next week at the same time to map more of the land.